This is my first time to start a thread on the PB. I have enjoyed reading this board for a couple of years and really appreciate the wisdom that everyone shares. This board had been very edifying for my family and me.

I have 3 covenant children: a 4 1/2 girl; and 2 boys - one is almost 3, and one is 8 months.

The main mode of discipline in our home is the use of the rod. I sit my child down and point out their sin by using the law of God, then I tell them that they can never fulfill the law and I always point them to Christ. We then pray and then I spank them. After this process, I feel like we are restored.

My question is this: With our two older children, is it OK to withhold privileges for a time as a form of discipline? For example, not letting them ride their bike for a week.

My thoughts are this: 1) They may be too young to understand the correlation between the sin and the loss of privilege and thus I may be exasperating my children and 2) the use of the rod is "enough" discipline and any more would be "punishment".

I can understand maybe not letting them have ice cream that day (as additional discipline), but my point is "extending" the discipline over several days. Is that healthy and is that biblical?

God disciplines me for my sins, but he doesn't punish me for my sins - they have been punished on Christ.

Any thoughts would be gladly welcomed!

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Mike Dudleson
Heritage Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Edmond, OK

As you say, it would depend on the ability of the child to comprehend the correlation between their disobedience and the loss of priviledge. Personally I don't see anything wrong or unbiblical with it. The theologians here on the board can definitely tell you better than I.

My son is 11 now and my daughter 7 and we have always used a combonation of the rod plus loss of priviledges to discipline them it doesn't seem to me that it has exasperated them ever so long as they understand why the priviledge has been removed for a time.

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Donald Jacobs
Marysville. WA
Cascade Church (CRCNA)

Cum vero infirmor tunc potens sum.

There are other ways of disciplining besides withdrawal of privileges when they get to be past the age where the switch is likely to be effective.

For example, if misbehavior results in damaged property, they fix it or pay for repairs or replacement.

Here's another example. Suppose you have to jump into the car and drive them somewhere to retrieve a valuable that they left behind. You figure out the mileage or cost of the gas and make them reimburse you. I actually applied this once when I had to come home from work in the middle of the day to deal with a situation. It was a 20-mile each way commute. I never had to do that again.

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~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
Currently disabled due to health issues
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

Have you listened to Al Martin?

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Independent Reformed Baptist Church (NE England, nr. Durham)

We take a similar tack. And we find that the training early on leads to less and less spankings later. The idea of reimbursement is also used - we 'fine' the children for certain things (wasting water, leaving lights on, etc.) and they understand it just fine - it really makes a difference.

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Kevin
Far East
Deacon, Int'l Church

Are you referring to a specific message or series?

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~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
Currently disabled due to health issues
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

There's a series on childrearing further down that page, Jay. I think it's the whole series he's talking about (I think I've listened to one or two of them already.)

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Kevin
Far East
Deacon, Int'l Church

What does this mean you have a covenant child? I have 5 children. Are they all in the covenant? I have heard this remark before but not quite sure what one means to say this.

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Kevin Lewis
Reformed Baptist - LBCF 1689
Covenant Community Church
Orlando, FL
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We have been in the "reformed camp" for nearly 25 years now. Discipline of young children is, IMHO, an especially weak area and hardly reflects what the Bible teaches or what, for example, the Larger Catechism articulates about the teaching of Scripture regarding the relationships of superiors, inferiors and equals.

I think it is very interesting how we are so committed to certain things that we’re comfortable with and comfortable discussing at length among ourselves; you know, “the 5 points”, “the RPW”, “being confessional”, “being reformed”, “are you infra- or supra-“, “does the confession teach”. But I really wonder about other points that are just as confessional or catechetical, yet maybe not quite as manageable.

The behavior of most of the children we have observed attending these churches is frequently insolent, cheeky, rowdy and just plain rude. For example, we were taught that running was for outside and not in a building. In school if you got caught running in the halls the teacher would send you back and then make you walk to wherever you were going. You didn’t run in the church building because there was always another adult nearby to remind you, “We don’t run in here, son.” You didn’t sass them because if you did, you’d get it at home because they would tell your parents.

We have often seen better behavior on the part of families at the mall, in the stores or in other public places than we've seen in church.

These kids come to church and the minute they get unbuckled and free of the family van it’s like they’ve been issued a command to run. They burst through the door of the venue. They run, play tag, roughhouse, and slap and punch each other while the adults talk. This goes on before services, between services, after services, at fellowship meals, and until they’re finally buckled into the van and heading back home.

They constantly interrupt adult conversations and are even encouraged to do so by the responses that most adults give them. They demand attention. If we did that we usually got the reminder “We’re talking. You know better than to interrupt.” If we were ever a cause of public embarrassment, there were consequences.

And these kids are like “who are you?” if someone other than their parents speak to them about their behavior. And many of the parents are quick to defend their kids “rights” and they’re like “Well I guess you have a problem, then.” If the parents are embarrassed, it’s not about what their kids did. It’s your fault for bringing attention to it.

We have observed these phenomena in the majority of “reformed” congregations where we have visited, attended, or been members.

Considering that many of these churches rent the facilities in which they worship, it makes me wonder sometimes what kind of testimony that we might be offering the non-believing attendant who is there to open up the building and sit at the front desk so that we can have our services. Or, for that matter, other casual observers who might be in the building during the time window.

We can be so thankful that “we’re not like those antinomian fundies out there” because we believe that the commandments are still applicable to us. But is this how we apply, for example, the 5th commandment? I might also say the 4th but I won’t go there because, doctrinal standards notwithstanding, you can argue about that until doomsday and get nowhere.

So how do we handle it?

Well, if were there and we’re trying to get something done and the kids begin getting under foot, we will look them in the eye and just say quietly and firmly, “We’re trying to work here. Please go play somewhere else.” They’ll usually do that.

Otherwise we have learned to just look the other way and let it go on. We just don’t want to see anyone get hurt or set ourselves up to choose between getting yelled at for stopping a potentially harmful situation or getting yelled at because someone gets injured or property gets damaged because we didn’t intervene. We have learned to excuse ourselves promptly following services and leave all the busyness behind.


Oh, and yes I know. Our standards are much too high. We expect too much. This is 2008. Sorry.

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~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
Currently disabled due to health issues
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

Personally, I think it is also doing the children a disservice to raise them with any expectations of them other than respect and hard work as a norm.

I look at my mom's family and see a father (my grandfather) who was poor as a churchmouse (a dirt farmer) but highly respected in the church community. I then look at his children and see among them a highly successful cabinetmaker who built his own house, a retired police officer of impeccable repute, a man working as a commercial engineer on mine and oil rig sites all over Australia (who never went to a day of school past 12th grade) and two daughters who married men who have stood as elders and are both successful in their careers. To me, much of this blossoming is planting in the fertile ground prepared by my grandfather. He cared passionately about his children's behaviour and taught them that hard work is a simple expectation, not a burst of energy every now and then when you feel like it.

Jay, I'd love to meet your son some day, he sounds like a fine young man.

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Kevin
Far East
Deacon, Int'l Church

Scroll to find out - I'd suggest you listen to all of them. Are you familiar with J Dobson? I don;t agree with his theology, but he offers good insights.

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Independent Reformed Baptist Church (NE England, nr. Durham)