Sorry for the delay on the next set of questions. Here's the original post in this series: Part I


Hypo #2

• Both sets of parents are Christian, do not live in the same area as the couple, and are indifferent to courtship
• Neither member of the couple has made very many past relationship mistakes, either of a physical or emotional nature.
• Both man and woman live in the same town and go to the same church
• Both members of the couple have some Christian friends, but many of their closest/best are scattered across the country/state. Of those they know, some are married and some are single.
• Both man and woman are 23-30, in grad/professional school or in the workforce

The previous one I didn't ask enough questions with my hypo:

• How much guidance and oversight should they have?
  • Who besides the elders of their church should they seek it from?
  • How extensive should it be?
  • What specific kinds of questions should they ask those guiding them?

• What should they do if their church and friends are unable or unwilling to provide the level of guidance and oversight you would prefer?
  • What constitutes an acceptable substitute or alternative provision within the principles when changing churches is not an option (i.e. it's the best one available)

• What dangers is this group most vulnerable to, both in terms of excess emotional and physical intimacy?
• What strengths should a couple in this position focus upon?
• What questions should they be asking themselves that might not come to mind at first thought?

__________________
Scott - Dallas, Texas - Faith OPC

"It is not what a lawyer tells me I may do; but what humanity, reason, and justice tell me I ought to do." - Edmund Burke

Bump

How much guidance and oversight should they have? the same as if they did have family/friends around
Who besides the elders of their church should they seek it from? members of their church which is now their family
How extensive should it be? they should be chaperoned while together
What specific kinds of questions should they ask those guiding them? I would have to think about that one
What should they do if their church and friends are unable or unwilling to provide the level of guidance and oversight you would prefer? I can't imagine a church disregarding their members...maybe find a responsible church
What constitutes an acceptable substitute or alternative provision within the principles when changing churches is not an option (i.e. it's the best one available) I don't think I understand this question
What dangers is this group most vulnerable to, both in terms of excess emotional and physical intimacy? the same as any human being that's why they need a chaperone.
What strengths should a couple in this position focus upon? Christ and their church
What questions should they be asking themselves that might not come to mind at first thought? Which actions of mine place me in danger/sin?

__________________
sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

I'm not sure what I'm posting here will be helpful, but it's what comes to mind via: 1) Scriptural reflection, 2) Personal experience leading to my marriage, 3) Personal experience counseling other guys though courtship issues. As a resource for being single, seeking to live a life to honor God, and think through courtship issues, I'd recommend The Rich Single Life by Andy Farmer (one of my pastors). I hope these answers help!

• How much guidance and oversight should they have? Yes. Yes - they should have guidance and oversight just as other Christians need guidance and oversight, amending that they need particular attention and input given the importance of the decision in process. Courtship is about intentionally and pro-actively considering "Is this person that whom I want to marry?" Guidance and input is there to help uphold the call to holiness on each person's life in the Gospel, and to help keep and clarify that question.
  • Who besides the elders of their church should they seek it from? Older, mature Christians who they feel comfortable with and from whom they believe they can get insight and direction from.
  • How extensive should it be?These intentional friendships don't mean counseling sessions once a week, it means that they should intentionally seek out older couples (if they aren't already in their lives) to hang out with, spend time with, and open their lives to. Most of the helpful things you'll get in these times are situations or throw-away comments that turn the lights on for some aspect of family life and the Gospel.
  • What specific kinds of questions should they ask those guiding them? One that has been helpful for other guys I've talked with is to ask those around you, "Do you think I'm in a position to get married?" Or something like that. It needs to be fit to each need (maturity, life situation, ability, sin struggles, etc.). And they need honest answers. Unfortunately, people can give the whole, "Oh, if you feel you are" answer, or a general nod. That's not helpful. If you're truly a Christian friend to someone, you'll have an eye on their life which will allow for a helpful, honest, grace-filled answer. If you don't, repent, and ask the Holy Spirit to help you love your friends as Christ loves us.

• What should they do if their church and friends are unable or unwilling to provide the level of guidance and oversight you would prefer? This question is too dificult to answer and is answered only by knowing each person's situation. (This is because the perceived unwillingness/inability might or might not be real, it might be a sin issue in the person to address, it might be the church and their level of maturity, etc.)
  • What constitutes an acceptable substitute or alternative provision within the principles when changing churches is not an option (i.e. it's the best one available)Again, this is determined by the particular of the situation. It might be that they can connect with trusted counselors elsewhere, set up regular meetings and accountability structures to help them. I'm not sure.

• What dangers is this group most vulnerable to, both in terms of excess emotional and physical intimacy? Spending too much alone time behind closed doors that allows for emotional/physical temptations to flourish. A closed door is a gigantic opening for sin. If there is no friendship structure, the temptation can be to start filling in those roles for each other that blur the lines of emotions, intentions, and status (i.e. "We're not married, and my dad's not around, so you - the guy - are filling in that protection role that my father isn't, and which only my husband is entitled to.)
• What strengths should a couple in this position focus upon? Involvement in the local church.
• What questions should they be asking themselves that might not come to mind at first thought? Where is my identity in this? What idols does this relationship bring out? What posibility does this relationship have of becoming an idol? Does my potential spouse love Jesus more than they have affection for me? What is praiseworthy about my potential spouse? What is our (respective) vision of family, gender-roles, future desires, job priorities, etc.?

__________________
Jacob
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Covenant Fellowship Church
WTS M.A.R. in Theology student
West Chester, PA

"Grace renews nature; glory perfects grace." ~ John Owen
"Grace tried is better than grace, and more than grace. It is glory in its infancy." ~ John Flavel
Blog - The Strasbourg Inn

Scott, just to start the discussion, I will share my views as a member of this age group. I think the more extreme supervision/parental management aspects of courtship do not make much sense for this age group. I see the goal of courtship as preventing serial monogamy, and I think when you are dealing with people who are 23-30, having constant outside involvement is not essential. I understand the parental management view of courtship when you are viewing it in opposition to teenage dating. However, I think parental headship looks different (in every area) by the time someone is 23-30 years old.

When someone is eighteen years old and looking for a potential spouse (and I don't think this is unreasonable at that age), parental guidance on what to look for is probably essential. I very much understand why a father would not want to let his seventeen-year-old daughter go out alone with a young man. I also agree that when a kid is that age, the parents probably do know better what the kid ought to be looking for. Also, for a young person who comes from one of those great families where everyone has a lot in common, it would be easier to get to know someone in a family context, and it would (maybe) be more important to find someone who mixes well with the rest of the family. When someone is twenty-five and still unmarried, extensive parental involvement may not be helpful at all. In my situation, I respect my parents' wisdom on the issue, but they don't have much interest in selecting a spouse for me, and I'm frankly glad of it. I don't think they would make a better choice than I: my theological standards are more exacting than my dad's, and my sense of what I am looking for is very different (and I don't think worse) than my mom's idea of what she would like in a son-in-law. To be blunt, I love my family, but don't really fit in with them. In looking for a husband, I am not looking for someone who fits in with them, but someone who is compatible with me. We will be starting a new family; he will not be joining mine. Too much influence from my parents while I am trying to make a good choice could be detrimental. Again, to be blunt, someone who would be a good husband for me would likely be someone my mom would consider "a little weird." With all of that said, I think (and at least very much hope) that if my dad chose to take a more active role in the process, I would submit to that. I'm just explaining why I am glad he is not doing so.

As for the scenario you have posed, I think a few things are important. As everyone mentioned in your first thread, the couple's elders should know that they are courting. Their parents need to know, too, and so should their close friends (at least). All of these people should ask the couple questions to make sure things are going well and that the couple are behaving themselves. It is not, in my view, essential that these people actually be present every time the couple are together. Maybe this varies from person to person, but it is at least theoretically possible that a Christian couple can spend time alone, perhaps even entirely alone, without sin (or, rather, with no more sin than any of us commits while alone). Of course, certain safeguards are a great idea -- meeting mostly in public places, making sure curtains are open whenever they are alone in a room, considering boundaries in advance. But the biggest differences between us and the world will not be in the tangible rules we set for ourselves (none of which can keep us from sin) but in the way we approach the process. Are we looking for a dating relationship, and the instant gratification that entails, or do we have the patience to look for a spouse? And while protecting sexual purity is extremely important, the (possibly) more difficult point is protecting the heart. I think this is more about patience and clear-headedness than about specific restrictions. But I am not married, and not that old, so I defer to the wisdom of more experienced people.

__________________
Evie B.
New Members Class, RPCNA, Cambridge, Massachusetts

Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old. Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert. -- Isaiah 43:18-19 (ESV)

Evie I think you said that with great good sense.

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Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

Patience must dwell with Love, for Love and Sorrow
Have pitched their tent together here:
Love all alone will build a house tomorrow,
And sorrow not be near. -Christina Rossetti

I concur.

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Kathleen M
nondenominational
Montana