The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

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* Ralph Wilms (7-10-1974)
* Church : Christengemeente Roermond (The Netherlands)
* 1729 Goat Yard Declaration of Faith & 1646 Baptist Confession of faith

"To our mind, either everything or nothing must be held in subjection to the will and providence of God. Even the wickedness of ungodly men is restricted by predestination, so that the wrath of man shall praise God, and the remainder of wrath He will restrain." - GILBERT BEEBE (1800-1881)

She's right!

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J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

While I personally hope to be fruitful and multiply, do we know that that was commanded to us? I think it is the best practice for Christians, as I think that the alternatives produce questionable practices, and I do think it is probably true.
But can a pastor speak on whether this was a command for all?
I don't know how to determine what was a command for an individual or all people.

I like Above Rubies (what I know of them) and thank you for the video!

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Shalom,
jessi
PCA
Steelers fan exiled to Virginia


“Whatever your heart clings to and confides in, that is really your God.”
Martin Luther

She is presuming continuity unless rescinded by the new testament.

Wonder if she is consistent with this position?

Any whom, I believe we should go forth and multiply to the best of our ability. That is, if God grants it, we should do it.

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Dewey D
Reformed Heritage Church (Independent at the moment)
San Fransicko, CA

wow... I wonder if she realizes that all though all children bear the image and likeness of God that just the fact that just beacause you are born into a christian household does not automatically make you a christian. I mean when God calls you are you not compelled to answer? Weither you are from a christian, non christian muslim or any other family. It seems to me that she's saying that if christians don't have lots and lots of babies then God's image won't fill the earth.... that just isn't true. And when she said that there are i don't know what she said something like hundreds of thousands of babies that would be here if christians wouldn't have followed Satan's agenda.... that seems to me that that is giving BC pills, abortions and whatever more power than God.... I happen to think that every child that God intended to be here IS here. God didn;t say "oh darn Suzie and Bill were supposed to have little Johnny but Suzie's on the Pill, shoot I guess not" Heck no.
Sorry. maybe it's this UTI that I have that's making me crabby.

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Jessica Auner
Wife, Mother,
Garden City, Ga
Ephesus Church
(a Reformed Baptist church)

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

DID SHE JUST SAY... that the "Godly have stoped the godly seed from entering the world"????

That sounds very much like a "pre-existence" view of the soul. Is she a Mormon?

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

I'll listen to a different teacher on children's issues.

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Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

Book Be Fruitful and Multiply by Vision Forum

She's not a Mormon; we get Above Rubies and she has lately been raving about how wonderful their new 1599 Geneva bible is. I don't agree with everything they put in there (there's some 'floopy' Christian stuff in some issues) but a lot of it is really quite good.

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Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

Floopy?

Is that like squirrely?

Possibly an alternate variant of loopy?

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

It's kindofa BR and not a TR magazine. There are headscratching moments in reading their magazine. But for the most part it's solid, though heavy on the QF, and if you're not into that, it would be tough to take.

She sounded (in the clip) like she believes in a pre-existence of the soul. I have heard similar nonsense from some QF types in the past. Does anyone know the source of this teaching within the QF movement?

I think it's more 'cultural' lingo than anything. I don't know of any QF-ers who theologically believe in a technical pre-existing soul (as a Mormon would), save for the idea that man is once again trying to declare his own sovereignty, and the joy that could be is therefore not.

-----Added 7/26/2009 at 10:46:49 EST-----

Just a side note - I was listening to it off-screen (the chairs looked too TBN-ish for me) and she sounded very much like Kate Blanchett in the Lord of the Rings movies. Sorry for the interruption...

Kevin, I don't know if I would let them off as easy as you did by calling it "cultural". I have heard & read several of the QF movement say that (prophylactic) BC "Prevents" children from being born.

Since prior to conception no child actualy exists, this sounds very much like a (heretical) "spirit baby" doctrine. IMO.

I don't know that I agree on that. Remember, the context with QF folks is not always reformed (or as reformed theologically as it should be). Thus God's sovereignty is not always in the place that it should be, hence the idea that 'we' may have something to do with the birth of children. Then yes, BC would stop babies from being born instead of a more reformed QF opinion of BC simply being rebellion against God.

But I don't know of anyone who would say that they were bringing 'spirit babies' over from the other side besides a Mormon.

Kevin I agree that most QF people are not reformed! And I further agree that most would not articulate a "spirit baby" doctrine...

However, what you hear as poorly formed rhetoric I would consider a major concession to heresy.

Christianity is NOT a fertility cult. Baalism was a fertility cult. And the people of God fell for it once. Dr Kyrkandal said in class once that if Baalism was packaged as modern evangelicalism we would fill the pews!

Loose rhetoric like that used in the clip makes me realise that us conservatives would join in with the crowd.

For the benighted among us, could someone say what "QF" stands for?

I'm pretty sure it means quiver full, but first I had to eliminate "quality foods", "quick Ferraris", and "Quixotic Fundamentalists."

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Raymond Victor Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

QF= quiver full. A movement among evangelical christians that teaches that any form of Birth Controll/Family Planning including prophylactic methods "prevent" the birth of (spirit babies??) children that God otherwise intended to give you.

I have many problems with this movement. Not the least of which is the teaching that God is Not sovereign, that man may subvert the will of God, that Christianity is reduced to a fertility cult, the (implicet) idea that souls have a pre-existence (or else how can they be "prevented"?).

And I would instead characterize it (judging by those in reformed circles that I know) as merely shunning birth control.

Unfortunately, it is the dispy/arminian/floopy ones that shout the loudest.

I thought she might be part of the pentecostal movement when I heard her.

Just to clarify since I made the comment, "She's right." I was referring to her main point which is we should not swallow the garbage that is being fed to us from the world right now regarding having children, not all the gory details.

I've never met a QF person who thought that BC prevents babies that God wanted to give. I think we are leaning toward QF and we KNOW that God will or won't give children as he sees fit, regardless of our own choices. However, I do also realize that in God's sovereignty, he can have us prevent babies (that never would have been) from being conceived by the scientific use of medicine. We can also sin, in his sovereignty, by us unknowingly aborting babies with chemical BC, thus killing babies that have been, albeit for a very brief moment in time.
What I mean to say is just as in God's sovereignty Tylenol works to take away headaches, any type of BC can work to prevent an egg from connecting with a sperm. Chemical BC can also work to abort a baby that has been conceived.
I don't think anything I have said is heretical or downplays God's sovereignty.

This is exactly right. God is sovereign over the womb, HE is the one who extends the blessing. We cannot "force" it to happen.

I grow tired of the "large families" proponents who, if you do not have at least 6 children of your own, will look at you as if you are apostate. These people completely miss the boat.

I have 3 children, but my wife has had 4 miscarriages. Would that still be deemed acceptable to these people?

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Randy Harris
Heritage PCA Church
Oklahoma City, OK

I agree Randy, and I grow tired of people who see my 6 dc and that we homeschool and therefore *plug us in* to a *movement*.

I think it is dangerous to be on ground where one would be tempted to assume *anything* about a couple by what is outwardly observed. I know too many who desire to fill their home with children....but God has not moved.....yet

And conversely, I know some who have many and they are not little blessings at all, but curses, because the parents have neglected to TRAIN them to be obedient.

Forgive me for hopping down the bunny trail here..... LOL!

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Polly
wife and mom
participating in an OPC church plant effort in Collierville, TN
living in N MS

My sympathies, brother. And yes, it would be acceptable. It is never about the number of children, it is only about the attitude towards children. I know a QF couple that has zero children. Been married probably 20 years. The Lord has seen fit not to connect sperm with egg (or whatever the issue may be). Such is His will.

Thank you, great post.

This is one of those situations where I think that people should learn to mind their own business and avoid making snap judgments about others. My parents aren't qf, but wanted a large family. They had two children, and then although they tried for more had none, so they decided to adopt a third child. Seven years later, they had a 4th and that appears to be the number God is giving them.

My poor mother had to deal with people telling her that she was "going against the will of God" because she only had 2 children for a long while. After we had four kids, other people told her that she was "overpopulating" the earth because she had 4 kids. (of course, they had no idea that one was adopted). At the same time, several people in our church told her that she should either be having more children biologically or if that wasn't happening, she needed to adopt more. The number of children you have is between you, your spouse, and God. It is absolutely no one else's business and no one should be commenting unless they've been asked to do so.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

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Kathleen M
nondenominational
Montana

I think the idea behind QF is being open to life. The number of children has nothing to do with us. I also agree that judgment should not occur based on number of children. I think close friends may know the full situation, like whether you want 2.2 kids or as many as God wills, but how would you ever know the desires of a stranger????????

It's the statements like "and we just said - hey, two is enough, and I got my tubes tied" that stand my hair on end. He will give as many children as he sees fit, it is simply not within our purview to decide how many that will be.

I know what you mean! At work, when I have to ask ladies if they are pregnant and they emphatically shake their head and say, "NO WAY! I got my tubes tied, thank (you know Who)," I feel like saying something to the effect of, "Isn't it nice to not have any more stupid little trouble makers around to bother you while you try to live life completely for yourself?" Of course, I only say, "Okay," but still, the feelings are there.

To my mind, although editing out the passages of Scripture that we don't personally like is certainly a great sin, so too is giving shallow interpretations of His Word.

Any automatic, pre-fab answer to such a broad and universal commandment, such as as "be fruitful and multiply", is immensely unhelpful in our discernment of God's will for our families.

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Rev. Toby L. Brown, pastor
Jefferson Center Presbyterian Church--in, but not of, the PC(USA)
Saxonburg, PA
A Classical Presbyterian
Proud member of The Westminster Fellowship

"The happiness of the creature consists in rejoicing in God, by which God is also highly exalted." --Jonathan Edwards

I don't know if this will work, but I made a timeline that I've been trying to put online forever. Every time I've tried before, I lost the format of the chronology. But this is from a discussion on the history of procreation vs. reproduction. Here is the timeline. The page will bring you nothing, but an attachment. The attachment is the timeline.
Let me know if it doesn't work.

I'm not really familiar with the Above Rubies lady, though I have read a few of her practical articles on child training and such and found her to be helpful.

I don't think this clip really represents most QF folks' theological underpinings. My understand is that the two main principles behind QF are 1) that scripture says children are a blessing and reward and 2) that God is the one who opens and closes the womb.

Its interesting to me to read on here people accusing QF people of not believing in the sovereignty of God. We are basically QF in that we are convicted by scripture saying that God opens and closes the womb, so we don't feel comfortable taking steps to close the womb at this point.***
Not because we think we can control His will. Its only because we believe in God's complete sovereignty that we're able to trust God that He won't give us babies we're not supposed to have. At least that's where we are on it at the moment. At the same time, I know that one could argue that if God wants you to have a baby, no birth control attempts on your part would stop it. Since we find chemical BC (the pill and likewise) morally unacceptable, and other forms of BC either icky, frustrating, or impediments to, er, fun we feel comfortable trusting God with our fertility since the Word says His Will will be done regardless. Its certainly something that deserves prayer and consideration by married couples.

***caveat - I wouldn't call us completely QF because we're not as completely convinced as many QF folks are - we would not persume to say that all family planning is sinful. But we do recognize that most of our personal reasons for avoiding pregnancy are not really Godly at all, and so unless we have a good reason, we choose to not interfere.

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Catherine
PCA
Waldorf, MD

Whoever gives thought to the word will discover good,
and blessed is he who trusts in the Lord.
Proverbs 16:20 ESV

It's safe to say that we all believe in the sovereignty of God, whether you are QF or not. A family will never have more or fewer children than God intended.

With that said, I can respect those who say "God opens and closes the whom, so we're leaving it all up to him", but I also question that mindset. Can a QF family adopt? What if a couple goes into marriage planning to have as many children as God allows and then finds out that their womb is closed?

Why would it be wrong for a couple to try to "close" their womb in the form of birth control, but right for a couple to try to "open" their womb in the form of adoption?

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Daniel
PCA
Memphis, TN

I would venture to say that adoption has a positive biblical connection, while birth control does not.

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Anna
Wife of Tim/Marrow Man
Louisville, KY
Member of Midlane Park Presbyterian (Associate Reformed Presbyterian)

I agree, but when it comes down to it, both are getting around God's opening and closing of the womb. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, but I can see where the QF mindset might lead SOME to rely on God's sovereignty so long as it results in lots and lots of babies. I haven't heard of many QF people who are content with having a closed a womb.

...for what it's worth, I think adoption is a great option for those with or without biological children, but I also think birth control can be a good thing.

Agreed.

We have three children -- each a blessing from God.

But Janet had successively more complications, and more children probably would have killed her.

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Dan

To be fair, I think that 1 Cor7:26-32 does set out that there are times when God says it is acceptable for a man to forgo marriage – and hence children – because of distress in his life(v26), or to reduce excessive carefulness in his life (v32). And even if a man is married, should not be the be all and end all of his existence (v29).

There may not explicit bible support for birth control, but its use in certain circumstances is in keeping with bible principles (saying so is not to deny that the way our world has gone is completely out of wack).

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Mark
Independent baptist
Singapore

Adopting is not forcing your womb open, as no baby enters or exits your womb in adoption. If we were talking about in vitro fertilization or something, then you might (and I think, do) have a point. QF is not, typically, about the number of babies you have, but your mindset.

Yo,

Be fruitful and multiple is certainly a command for Christians today. We can thank Feminism and Autonomy for why this command is looked at as if it is ancient and not revelant for todays Christians. Hogwash

Also, for some of the comments I've read about the people who advocate large families 6 or more, those people don't look down upon others who don't have as many. I mean if you've had multiple miscarriages those children belong to the LORD as well. If the LORD decree was for them not to enter this world then there's nothing you can do about it. Yet, don't feel ashamed and I'm sure any big family of 6 or more will understand your hardship.

So instead of being pessimistic towards big family advocates, try to understand that they may not understand your situation if you don't communicate it.

Also, Christians having multiple children doesn't gaurantee those children will be inward Christians but it does gaurantee they will be raised up and brought up under the fear and admonition of the LORD their GOD for he is the God of the Saints and the Heathens let the church say Amen.

Just my thoughts on the topic.

Grace and Peace,
seal

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seal
Laymen/Christian Producer/Rapper
RCA, Tampa FL

Daniel,

I agree with your point about some QF'ers not being content with a closed womb. I don't make other families' business my business, but I must confess that I have a difficult time with the *lack of contentment* with what God has given amongst some of my friends who claim QF. Sometimes, it seems no sooner has a baby been birthed before they are pining away for another. It reminds me of children holding out their hand for *more* candy as the piece they have in their mouth is drooling down their face. And, when God doesn't *bless* every two years or so, there is whining and pleading.

I think that an important point gets missed.....it's about TRUSTING God, in all things, and being CONTENT. The focus always needs to be on the *Giver* rather than the gifts and how many or how few.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying it's wrong to ask God for a child, it is something that goes *beyond* that to which I speak. And...I know this does not apply to all who hold to QF beliefs.