Thread: Children of baptists, prayer

I have a question to baptists about children. Baptists: do you teach your children to pray even though they have not made a confession of faith? Do you encourage prayer, even though they are unbelievers at the time? I can't help but feel that praying with my unregenerate little sister is inconsistent since I would never take an unrelated unbeliever and pray with them like that. What is your perspective on this?

Oooooooo, resist...the...urge...to...comment.





Sorry, I'm good now.

Originally Posted by AThornquist

I have a question to baptists about children. Baptists: do you teach your children to pray even though they have not made a confession of faith? Do you encourage prayer, even though they are unbelievers at the time?

I encourage them to call upon the Lord. Isn't that the point of preaching? (Rom 10)

Yes. It is kind of hard for me to imagine otherwise. If I were not to encourage prayer, am I not implicitly encouraging no prayer?

1: Pray with unbelivers so that they may learn by example.
2: We are directed to Pray (and repent and many other things.)
3: The heart, or the "feeling" frequently follows action. If one waits till they feel like doing something then it usually won't get done.
4: We should pray for the salvation of the unsaved child (Or adult as the case may be.)
5: Many are being drawn but don't yet know Christ as their savior - they should indeed pray and ask themselves for salvation. A child and any other person being drawn to God, trying to find God should pray that their hearts be opened, and they be submitted to His will.

I prayed for years through my long and sordid path before I cam to salvation. I knew He was real, I knew I was His, but I was very miss-led, confused, and rebellious. He is Sovereign, and he was drawing me. One of the ways he made it clear He was real and continued to draw me to Him was through prayer.

I have a question to baptists about children. Baptists: do you teach your children to pray even though they have not made a confession of faith? Do you encourage prayer, even though they are unbelievers at the time? I can't help but feel that praying with my unregenerate little sister is inconsistent since I would never take an unrelated unbeliever and pray with them like that. What is your perspective on this?

Paedo's love to point this tension out. But I never quite understood it.

God hates the prayers of the wicked. Since a paedo's covenant child may still, in fact, be unregenerate, they are hoist on their own petard. Whether the child is in the covenant or not is irrelevant as far as their ability to pray in a way that will be heard (and not hated) by God.

Old Testament Jews who were wicked were not heard by God. He hated their prayers just as much as He did any false prayers offered by Israel's enemies...perhaps more so. It holds the same for paedo's - if the child is unregenerate, then shouting "But he's a covenant child!" accomplishes nothing - he still can't pray rightly.

That doesn't help your felt tension on the matter at all. But I do believe it gives us more company in the problem.

I do not have children yet, and so I am still working out exactly how I will handle this. But here's what I have so far:

There's no explicit, scriptural reason to "encourage" them to pray or to have them repeat anything after you. Jesus taught unregenerates to pray in an indirect way. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was teaching and talking to the disciples. He was addressing his teaching specifically to them. But he walked up on the mount so that his lesson to the disciples could be heard by all.

I believe as a parent I may handle it the same way. I will read scripture to them, teach them the gospel and catechize them, and also pray hard and often with them present in family worship and prayer time. And the older children who have professed faith will also join in those things.

I don't see much purpose in having a small child pray incoherently, when he or she has to be prodded along even to do that. So my approach as of now will be this: preach the Word, show them my faith in my works, and have meaningful prayer time in family worship. When the Spirit of God moves the child to faith - it certainly won't take any leading or prodding by myself to get him or her to pray.

"Teach a child the way he should go, and when he is older, he will not depart from it..."

Presbyterians--who probably shouldn't be trying to "find" tensions for Baptists to worry about--will sometimes try to get a Baptist to squirm on this hook.

Baptists--also foolishly--try to make Presbyterians squirm on the hook of paedocommunion.

These are pretty silly, because neither question really comes at the other position from a thoroughgoing apprehension of the other side's axioms. From the outside, we look and say, "Aha, that looks like it must be an unresolved tension! Why didn't anyone ever see that before! I'm a genius!"


Now, it is significant that a Baptist started the thread. So, opining that Presbyterians have "the same problem" doesn't really bring the heat, because I've yet to hear a Presbyterian wrestling with this issue. If someone thinks a Presbyterian should, that's another issue. But it seems to crop up in Baptists circles (in a serious way, not in a "tension-creating" way), which makes it more or less a stereotypical Baptist issue.

Presbyterians--who probably shouldn't be trying to "find" tensions for Baptists to worry about--will sometimes try to get a Baptist to squirm on this hook.

Baptists--also foolishly--try to make Presbyterians squirm on the hook of paedocommunion.

These are pretty silly, because neither question really comes at the other position from a thoroughgoing apprehension of the other side's axioms. From the outside, we look and say, "Aha, that looks like it must be an unresolved tension! Why didn't anyone ever see that before! I'm a genius!"

Now, it is significant that a Baptist started the thread. So, opining that Presbyterians have "the same problem" doesn't really bring the heat, because I've yet to hear a Presbyterian wrestling with this issue. If someone thinks a Presbyterian should, that's another issue. But it seems to crop up in Baptists circles (in a serious way, not in a "tension-creating" way), which makes it more or less a stereotypical Baptist issue.

I will respond, as this seems to be addressed to me.

The point I made is quite relevant to the thread, whether one agrees with it or not. The OP betrayed an assumption (by addressing it only to Baptists) that this issue only gives tension to the Baptist. And that implies the OP believes that the tension is brought on by our view of the covenant, while the Paedo view of the covenant allows for a child to pray by virtue of their perceived covenant membership. This is a mistaken assumption in my view. I'm not bringing in an unrelated issue just to play tit-for-tat.

I do not assert any inherent, unsolvable tension for the Paedo in this matter.

Rather, I am saying the Baptist problem and the Paedo problem are exactly the same - having an unregenerate pray to God, potentially heaping greater curses and coals on his head.

Whether that unregenerate, at the time of the prayer, is perceived to be in the covenant or not is irrelevant. If that is correct, then the approach I have posted would equally resolve it for both the Paedo and Credo.

It is a stereotypically Baptist issue. But it shouldn't be. Because perceived covenant status is not what ought to give us pause in having someone pray. Rather, perceived regenerate status is. I believe Baptists who approach this from a view of the covenant are equally in error with those Presbyterians who believe the child can pray by virtue of covenant status.

The only reason I asked baptists specifically was because I figured that there might be some variations in what Presbyterians believe about the prayers of covenant children. My original intention was not to understand such variations and nuances but rather focus on what prayer should look like in my credo-baptist home (and as soon as possible). Thank you all for the input so far.

I pray with my little 2 year old and she even prays, I teach her by examples hoping that when she is older she "will not depart" from what I have taught her, and she would call on the name of the Lord. Yes it is correct that she may be unregenerate but if and when she is regenerate it will be of great benefit to her if she already knows how to pray rather than starting from a blank slate (if you will)

I encourage families to pray together. Family prayer/worship is a form of evangelism.

"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy." 1 Cor 7:15

So the husband of the unbelieving wife is sanctified (set apart), otherwise the children would be considered as being "unclean" but now they are holy. As the infants of a believing parent is seen as being "holy" by the eyes of God, should not they be seen as being "holy" by the parent? And if they are to be seen as "holy" and "clean" by the parent, they should be able to pray with their child as "someone who is in the Lord". One does not go around telling there 2 year old to "repent and believe" or they will face eternal separation from God. We all teach them that the merits of Christ will be theirs if they believe. And we consider them safe, in God's sovereign hands until they grow up.

Originally Posted by Rogerant

"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy." 1 Cor 7:15

So the husband of the unbelieving wife is sanctified (set apart), otherwise the children would be considered as being "unclean" but now they are holy. As the infants of a believing parent is seen as being "holy" by the eyes of God, should not they be seen as being "holy" by the parent? And if they are to be seen as "holy" and "clean" by the parent, they should be able to pray with their child as "someone who is in the Lord". One does not go around telling there 2 year old to "repent and believe" or they will face eternal separation from God. We all teach them that the merits of Christ will be theirs if they believe. And we consider them safe, in God's sovereign hands until they grow up.

Why not? If they're old enough to understand it?

In "Praying in the Spirit" John Bunyan writes: "Men learn to pray by conviction for sin, and this is the way to make our children do so too. But the other way, namely, to be busy in teaching children forms of prayer, before they know anything else, it is the way to make them cursed hypocrites, and to puff them up with pride."

My practice is that my children (3 and 4 years old) hear me in serious prayer every (or most) days and they hear me pray about my sin and they hear me pray that they will come to know Him. I give them opportunities to add a prayer or some thanks to God but there is no pressure on them to do so. I'm careful to not show I'm pleased when they do pray because I don't want them to pray simply to please me.

The only prayer I might one day encourage them in is to pray for the gift of faith.

Originally Posted by dr_parsley

In "Praying in the Spirit" John Bunyan writes: "Men learn to pray by conviction for sin, and this is the way to make our children do so too. But the other way, namely, to be busy in teaching children forms of prayer, before they know anything else, it is the way to make them cursed hypocrites, and to puff them up with pride."

My practice is that my children (3 and 4 years old) hear me in serious prayer every (or most) days and they hear me pray about my sin and they hear me pray that they will come to know Him. I give them opportunities to add a prayer or some thanks to God but there is no pressure on them to do so. I'm careful to not show I'm pleased when they do pray because I don't want them to pray simply to please me.

The only prayer I might one day encourage them in is to pray for the gift of faith.

Paul, exactly! As children witness prayer and family worship, it is the prayer of the parents, that the children will be convicted of sin and come to faith in Christ. It is no more complicated than that.

Originally Posted by smhbbag

The point I made is quite relevant to the thread, whether one agrees with it or not. The OP betrayed an assumption (by addressing it only to Baptists) that this issue only gives tension to the Baptist. And that implies the OP believes that the tension is brought on by our view of the covenant, while the Paedo view of the covenant allows for a child to pray by virtue of their perceived covenant membership. This is a mistaken assumption in my view. I'm not bringing in an unrelated issue just to play tit-for-tat.

I grant you the point you're making. I might have expressed the general nature of the perceived problem differently, so I read your post with a less-than open mind. Sorry about that.

Originally Posted by smhbbag

Whether that unregenerate, at the time of the prayer, is perceived to be in the covenant or not is irrelevant.

(emphasis mine)
I think we'll be differing here, because covenant-location isn't utterly indifferent, in our view. From an outsider's perspective, perhaps it seems as though we're pantomiming, but that's the problem with perspective. The child is under an obligation to pray, not simply being urged or encouraged to pray. And not just for entrance into Christ's kingdom, and then once that's been granted on to other matters; but today for all things through the Mediator.

If he's an Esau, he's going to have to deal with his heart issue in eternity. It's a "hidden thing" (Dt.29:29) and we deny any tension between enforcing an obligation, and wondering if we are pushing a child into sinning.

I would like to say the same thing to the Baptist: that he should be encouraging his child to pray for all his needs and wants through Jesus name. However, not being inside that paradigm, I do not know if he will be feeling a tension that I do not experience.

Originally Posted by smhbbag

It is a stereotypically Baptist issue. But it shouldn't be. Because perceived covenant status is not what ought to give us pause in having someone pray. Rather, perceived regenerate status is. I believe Baptists who approach this from a view of the covenant are equally in error with those Presbyterians who believe the child can pray by virtue of covenant status.

Not an issue because no one should have it? Or that it should be a problem for everyone who is operating with "covenant" categories? I'm not sure what you're position is.

The issue for us isn't that he "can" pray because of the covenant, but that if he is an Esau he "can't" fulfill his obligation (from being inside the covenant) in a way that will ever go through the Mediator of the covenant.

Originally Posted by AThornquist

The only reason I asked baptists specifically was because I figured that there might be some variations in what Presbyterians believe about the prayers of covenant children. My original intention was not to understand such variations and nuances but rather focus on what prayer should look like in my credo-baptist home (and as soon as possible). Thank you all for the input so far.

I do not know if as a paedo-baptist I can offer you insight. It's the main reason I didn't offer any input before, and why I thought we on this side should just refrain from replying. I considered moving your question to the Credo-answers forum, but decided to leave it.

Originally Posted by Skyler

Originally Posted by Rogerant

One does not go around telling there 2 year old to "repent and believe" or they will face eternal separation from God. We all teach them that the merits of Christ will be theirs if they believe. And we consider them safe, in God's sovereign hands until they grow up.

Why not? If they're old enough to understand it?

It's the "package deal." I think what the post meant to convey was that we don't exclusively instruct them to take care of the initial matter of establishing a relationship to Christ, and then after that is decisively settled, to go on in a life of prayer.

Rather, we teach them that through the Mediator comes everything, forgiveness of sin being the foundation. And we operate on the basis that their whole lives must be ones of repenting and believing.

Originally Posted by Herald

Paul, exactly! As children witness prayer and family worship, it is the prayer of the parents, that the children will be convicted of sin and come to faith in Christ. It is no more complicated than that.

Actually it is infinitely more complicated than that because, according to Paul, the Holy Spirit is the one who "translates" the prayers of those calling on the name of the Lord.

And I know you're not suggesting that conviction of sin comes from family prayer. It may indeed come through the Holy Spirit through the occasion of prayer, but it comes from the Spirit or nothing else. That's what complicates the matter.

The reason paedo's consider the covenantal aspect of this is because the Holy Spirit, after the fall, must prompt the soul to call upon the Lord. However, we know that the command exists throughout the OT for men to call upon the name of the Lord. It is a command that to the regenerate, will bring blessing, and to the unregenerate, a curse. But it is a command to all. It is part of the created order that the creature should call upon the name of the Creator.

The tension exists between the two understandings because one puts forward prayer as a means of grace, where the other would not use such language. The paedo places prayer along with the sacraments and the Word as a means of grace. Those means are available to the children of believing parents, because, as someone has already posted, the children are holy and set apart unto God. It is discipleship in its purest form. We are commanded to instruct our children in the ways of the Lord. The benefits of the covenant are theirs only if the Spirit makes them effectual, but we trust in the Lord that He will have mercy. If He does not, the means of grace stand against them in judgment.

But in teaching children to pray, you teach them to call upon the Lord when they have need of Him. I can remember when I was about 5, I was trying to find my shoe in a closet full of toys and other things. My mother was yelling for me to come, but I needed to find my shoe. I remember praying to God for His help. And I found my shoe. I learned that day that God would answer the simplest of prayers, and my faith, however weak it was, was strengthened that day even though I had not yet made a profession of faith (I grew up baptistic).

So teaching children to pray is eternally valuable to those whom the Lord will call, but in those whom He does not, it may indeed add to their destruction. But we shouldn't worry either way. Salvation is of the Lord. Make disciples of your children no matter if you think they believe or not. This is normative discipleship and the way God mostly adds to His church.

In Christ,

KC

(Eph 6:1) Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

(Eph 6:2) Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise

(Eph 6:3) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

(Eph 6:4) And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

(Mat 6:9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

(Mat 6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

(Mat 6:11) Give us this day our daily bread.

(Mat 6:12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

(Mat 6:13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

I believe these are two good places to start when teaching our Children. They are places where I started with my boys. The Lord's prayer specifically teaches them that their reliance is upon God. The very sustenance they depend upon starts with God their Creator and I also see that he is the Father of all Creation in a general sense. Christ is the Eternal Father as referenced in Isaiah 9:6 and that is put in relation to him as being head of all nations of the World. And the Government shall be upon his shoulders.

The Lord's prayer also teaches the kids about their trespassing and their need to rely upon God for forgiveness of sin as well as for their Daily bread. These are not things that God will turn them away from. As the scripture records...

(Mat 7:7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

(Mat 7:8) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

(Mat 7:9) Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

(Mat 7:10) Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

(Mat 7:11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

I believe we are to admonish our children to call upon the Lord. It teaches them the right way and it I do believe the Word of God does convert the soul as Psalm 19:7 says.

(Psa 19:7) The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

(Psa 19:8) The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

(Psa 19:9) The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

(Psa 19:10) More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

I do believe that God rains upon the just and the unjust.

Kevin,

Actually, I don't see it as more complicated than that. As children are exposed to family worship and corporate worship, they are hearing the gospel. It is the work of the Spirit to convict of sin and regenerate. But the Spirit always uses the "means" - the gospel. There are no guarantees that those exposed to the gospel will believe; but those who do believe cannot do so without exposure to the gospel. It that sense it is a very uncomplicated matter.

Good input. Thanks, all.

What about prayers before meals? If you have a kid who is 7 and unsaved, would you make the kid pray before meals even when he is eating by himself? As in, would you say across the room when he starts eating: "Hey - I don't think you prayed before you started eating" and then wait for him to do so? The situation that prompted my initial question happened along these lines. I was just a bystander and felt awkward about what happened. I'm glad the discussion in this thread was broader than just this scenario, though.

Originally Posted by Herald

Kevin,

Actually, I don't see it as more complicated than that. As children are exposed to family worship and corporate worship, they are hearing the gospel. It is the work of the Spirit to convict of sin and regenerate. But the Spirit always uses the "means" - the gospel. There are no guarantees that those exposed to the gospel will believe; but those who do believe cannot do so without exposure to the gospel. It that sense it is a very uncomplicated matter.

I agree. But I wouldn't call it uncomplicated. For some reason that word makes it sound easy or commonplace. I'm sure you'd agree that the process of the Spirit regenerating a dead soul is something we can never fully understand and will always remain miraculous.

I guess it is one of those things that may be stated simply for all to understand, yet is so profound one could think on it for eternity and still not plumb the depths.

In Christ,

KC

Originally Posted by kceaster

The tension exists between the two understandings because one puts forward prayer as a means of grace, where the other would not use such language. The paedo places prayer along with the sacraments and the Word as a means of grace.

This, I do believe, touches on the differences on the issue. Excellent point.

The tension exists between the two understandings because one puts forward prayer as a means of grace, where the other would not use such language. The paedo places prayer along with the sacraments and the Word as a means of grace.

Can the Baptist not also view it that way? Certainly, most do not, but would you see any contradiction if he did?

Originally Posted by kceaster

Originally Posted by Herald

Kevin,

Actually, I don't see it as more complicated than that. As children are exposed to family worship and corporate worship, they are hearing the gospel. It is the work of the Spirit to convict of sin and regenerate. But the Spirit always uses the "means" - the gospel. There are no guarantees that those exposed to the gospel will believe; but those who do believe cannot do so without exposure to the gospel. It that sense it is a very uncomplicated matter.

I agree. But I wouldn't call it uncomplicated. For some reason that word makes it sound easy or commonplace. I'm sure you'd agree that the process of the Spirit regenerating a dead soul is something we can never fully understand and will always remain miraculous.

I guess it is one of those things that may be stated simply for all to understand, yet is so profound one could think on it for eternity and still not plumb the depths.

In Christ,

KC

By uncomplicated I mean our approach in evangelizing our children. We need to keep the main thing (the gospel) the main thing.

Another thing, whether credo or paedo, our approach to prayer and teaching our children does not change the manner in which regeneration takes place. Regeneration is the work of the Spirit. When the term "means of grace" is used, does it not refer to the gospel? Whether it be the salvific work of the gospel, or the sanctifying work of the gospel; both are means of grace.

Originally Posted by smhbbag

The tension exists between the two understandings because one puts forward prayer as a means of grace, where the other would not use such language. The paedo places prayer along with the sacraments and the Word as a means of grace.

Can the Baptist not also view it that way? Certainly, most do not, but would you see any contradiction if he did?

I would be elated if he did! It is good language.

In Christ,

KC

-----Added 9/9/2009 at 03:08:02 EST-----

Originally Posted by Herald

Another thing, whether credo or paedo, our approach to prayer and teaching our children does not change the manner in which regeneration takes place. Regeneration is the work of the Spirit. When the term "means of grace" is used, does it not refer to the gospel? Whether it be the salvific work of the gospel, or the sanctifying work of the gospel; both are means of grace.

I would imagine most of the time it is uncomfortable for credo-baptists to use those terms because sacraments are included in that understanding.

In Christ,

KC

Originally Posted by kceaster

Originally Posted by Herald

Another thing, whether credo or paedo, our approach to prayer and teaching our children does not change the manner in which regeneration takes place. Regeneration is the work of the Spirit. When the term "means of grace" is used, does it not refer to the gospel? Whether it be the salvific work of the gospel, or the sanctifying work of the gospel; both are means of grace.

I would imagine most of the time it is uncomfortable for credo-baptists to use those terms because sacraments are included in that understanding.

In Christ,

KC

Kevin, you're probably right. But Baptists err when they react to what Presbyterians believe. RB's have less of a problem with this teaching. If the "means of grace" is seen as a function of the Spirit, through the gospel, then the sacrament problem is adequately addressed.

Forgive me if I advocate too much on some implications in addition to trying to offer a response to the OP.

We should recall that the unregenerate can offer glory to God without reaping the benefits of His grace.

Balaam could only pray blessing upon Israel, and such a prayer was consonant with God's commandments.

Nebuchadnezzar, after his "beastly ordeal," offered praise to God that seems both genuine and Scripturally true, though it is not certain that Nebuchadnezzar was regenerate.

While I would not argue that it is inconsistent for Baptists to pray for and with their children, or even teach them how to pray correctly, for there is common benefit to all men to know what prayer is and how it is done correctly, it does not resolve the tension regarding discipleship. One cannot disciple and unregenerate, for discipleship assumes that the Holy Spirit is present and active.

Many Presbyterians, who have rejected presumptive regeneration on the basis of misuses of that doctrine do a disservice to their children as well, I might add.

The consistent position, which enables both fervent instruction and practice in prayer as well as consistent assumptions regarding discipleship is that God intends to be normatively faithful to His promise that the generations of believers shall be His people. Being normative rather than universal, there are attended means or requirements placed upon parents, church, and individuals (i.e. the children), but given those factors the Christian parent has no reason to doubt that God will call their child unto Himself.

Let the little children come unto me, for such is the Kingdom of Heaven.
This promise is to you, and to your children, and to all who are far off.

Where has the NT abrogated the promises God has made to the generations of the faithful?

I'm sorry maybe it's because it's early in the am or because I'm pregnant and hormonal but this upsets me.... the thought that some parents or big brothers would not pray with or teach a child to pray. This to me seems the most vile form of child abuse. They are your children!!! why would you not teach them to pray? You are responsible to GOD for how you raise them. WHY would you not teach them from the earliest of ages to talk to the One who made them? Who protects and loves them? They are children and innocent. (not sinless) We are called to be child like in our faith. If you love your child why would you not teach them to talk to, praise, and implore the very Most High God???? Just yesterday in school (my boys are in 1st grade and Kindergarten) in Bible we learned Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving, and Supplication. At prayer times they were encouraged to pray using those as a model so that their prayer wasn't just : "God thanks for the food, amen" Teaching them to pray is the most loving and God honoring thing you can do and as a believer I believe it's a sin if you don't teach your child in the way he should go talking to God.

Christian parents are responsible for teaching their children the way of the Lord (Deut. 6:7 & Prov. 22:6). Teaching and praying with our children, regardless of whether they have yet believed, is a way of declaring the gospel to them. Who is better equipped to declare the gospel to children? Certainly it is the parents. Practicing this is in no way inconsistent with Baptist belief.