I am dating a very sweet, kind, Christian girl. Unfortunately, she also attends a church that is blatantly heretical. (Global Revolution Church... It's a Revolution)

Normally I would not pursue such a relationship, yet she truly does believe in the innerancy of the Bible and of God's power. She simply has a very narrow understanding.

Her faith is very much built upon the experiential, the spiritual "highs", the awe of those who speak in tongues, etc. I am in constant conflict, as I do not want to rebuke these things openly, because I know for her it would be hard to discern between me attacking her God or simply her theology.

However, I do love her very much as a sister in the faith, however corrupted hers is. I do not want to relinquish the battle for her mind. I suppose my quandry is two-fold. Firstly, is it worthwhile and right for a Calvinist, Reformed 17-year old to be dating someone who, while not knowing what Arminianism is, clings to its teachings? And secondly, if it is something allowable, how would I go about trying to change her doctrines without broaching upon her experiences, which she ties directly to God and her relationship with him?

I hope I put this in the right forum. It can be moved, of course, if neccesary.

__________________
Luke
PCA
Orlando, FL

Luke, I may be wrong about this, but it seems dangerous to me for you to be in a formal romantic relationship with her until she is more grounded in sound theology. If you start teaching her Reformed theology while dating her, and no one in authority over her is doing so, you run the risk of acting as her spiritual head. You may not be ready for the attachment this could create. If you then realize that she isn't going to become Reformed and thus is not the person you want teaching your children, both of you could be seriously hurt.

Also, I am not prepared to say that all romantic relationships between 17-year-olds are wrong, but when one of those teenagers is not well taught and possibly not well supervised, all the inherent dangers of teenage dating are magnified. That's just my assessment; I hope you'll get others from those who are older and wiser.

A couple of other issues: You aren't being honest with her in your opinion of her beliefs, and I'm not sure how much you can respect and admire her when you think her beliefs are "corrupted" and that her understanding isn't good. If and when she finds out how heretical you think her church is, she's going to be in for some shock, and may feel that you've deceived her.

__________________
Evie B.
New Members Class, RPCNA, Cambridge, Massachusetts

Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old. Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert. -- Isaiah 43:18-19 (ESV)

I think thats a valid assessment, actually.

I am by no means the only Christian in her life, yet the only one that is truly reformed. We are both part of a close-knit group of friends, so there is support there. However, I know I need to be cautious.

I am experienced in teenage dating, and know my limitations. However, previously theology in a relationshop was not much of a concern, as I had not yet developed. I have become more awakened.

Bro, in my opinion, commitment to the Reformed idea of the "means of grace" are going to be integral to sustaining a healthy marriage. However, "Pastor" Beverly is teaching a class on "flowing in the prophetic" at Global Revolution. I think you are going to have huge problems with pursuing a serious relationship with this young lady, and, although I'm sure it is difficult, I would encourage you not to continue in this.

__________________
Taylor W. Otwell, Husband to Abigail
Member, Fellowship Bible Church
Fort Smith, Arkansas
Family Blog

Yea, her church is crazy. Luckily, shes a smart girl, and doesnt listen to all of it. But still. I hear you.

That church is actually an interesting story. The leader actually pastored a methodist church for 15 years... got kicked out cause he wrecked them financially.

He was charismatic to some people I suppose. My gf's parents followed him to his new church. Shes been to my church a few times and likes it... would like to make it more of a habit.

I dont want to give off the impression that I make it a habit to pick up girls simply to convert them to reformed theology. I dont. But this one strikes me as special, as odd as it seems.

Yet the waters in which I wade are no doubt murky.

Evie about said it all, and i agree.
upon marriage you WILL need to be the spiritual head and you WILL need to attend the same church.

if i were you i would talk to her and express your concerns and maybe work through the issues exegetically if she is willing, but you must listen to her opinion and not just blow them off because they don't align with your Calvinistic views (even though you are correct) and who knows both of your beliefs might be refined.

__________________
"Bible knowledge without repentance, will be but a torch to light men to hell. -Thomas Watson
United Through Christ
Ricky Heeb
Grace Reformed Church (RCUS) Lancaster, CA

Could you articulate upon this? I have a notion of listening to her (even compromise in some areas, perhaps...), yet not sure how this would be done.

We actually had a little blow-up over this recently, as she claimed that I made a disgusted facial expression when she said certain things she believed (it wasnt intentional, I assure you.) Im trying to get better, but could you elaborate on how our beliefs might be refined? Where do i draw the line between rebuking and trying to understand?

By all means humbly ask questions about her theology and dig into the Word together....but not in a relationship. Missionary dating is rarely a good idea, and that's exactly what this sounds like.

From one teenage guy to another.

__________________
Ben Franks

I attend: Ketoctin Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC)
in Purcellville, Virginia
I'm a member of: Heartland Community Church (PCA)
in Wichita, Kansas
I blog here (along with my Dad): http://rrfranks.blogspot.com/
And I'm a student here: www.phc.edu

"Remember the speeches we have spoken so often over our mead, when we raised boast on the bench, heroes in the hall, about hard fighting. Now may the man who is bold prove that he is."-Aelfwine at the Battle of Maldon

if it were me and i were really interested in a pursuit of marriage (because that where all relationships should lead) i would tell her "I have some concerns about your theology and i'm sure you have some concerns with mine... will you be willing to search the scriptures with me and we can discuss our conclusions"

your beliefs will be refined because you will be forced to look at both sides of the issue instead of what a reformer has to say and your main concern is with the scripture.

i would start with what you would think to be the important stuff... things that could lead her in a bad path if taken to it's logical conclusion. i would have charity on somethings with her.

the churches belief statement looks kind of troubling... make sure she is saved. (but not in an accusing way). i don't see the gospel in there.

Ya think?

Optimistically, most times relationships between 17 year olds do not last. However, you cannot count on that. I was 17 and Jeanette 16 when we started dating and we have been married for almost 35 years and are in our mid 50s now!!!

How grounded in THE faith is she? 17 yr. olds are known for not knowing much about what they believe and can be quite pliable, particularly when part of a seemingly successful church.

Congrats for asking these kinds of questions at 17. Follow the answers and advice you receive and they will stand you in good stead in the years to come.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

How grounded in the faith is she?

She believes that the word of God is the truth. She knows that emotions cannot be the base of religion, even if that is the major influence for her very often.

She has been poisoned, simply put. But she is faithful- in the only possible way she can be. She has a true desire to know God. It has been misapplied, as she has been taught that her emotions are how she knows God. But again, she is smart- she has grown suspicious of this.

If she did not have respect for the word of God, there would be no point in the pursuit. However, she does- and I think that is more than many could have said at 17. Therefore, I see hope on the horizon.

And as to the "ya think?", he is certainly charismatic in doctrine as well lol. I was reffering to his personality, but I suppose the two go hand in hand. I pity his followers- so many of them are just ignorant. Yet at the same time, I feel like they should have more motivation to actually study the word, especially the ones well into their years.

OK, the discussion has progressed past the title of the OP. I just wanted to offer encouragement in that when we first starting dating, my wife (Scottish Lass) was attending a church that could not properly be called "Calvinistic." It was a PCUSA (I was also PCUSA at the time, but attending a more conservative form of that church), and she had actually been taught that Calvinism was something that Presbyterians used to believe, but not any longer (specifically, the doctrine of predestination). She didn't believe in the doctrine, per se, because it had never actually been taught to her (I the same may be true of many Arminians). Obviously, that changed after studying the Scriptures.

Now, I certainly don't want to give you false hope, only general encouragement. I does provide an opportunity for you to carefully go through Scripture with her and show her what God says about these things.

__________________
Tim Phillips
Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
Louisville, KY
Husband of Scottish Lass
My Blog: Gairney Bridge
My Facebook/My Avatar

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"Wherever the gospel is preached, it is as if God Himself came into the midst of us." ~ John Calvin

You might want to consider doing some internet study on the concept of courting.
Many Christians do not think casual dating esp alone time is wise.

They meet in groups and see each other at school or work and church functions.

Then if one thinks another could be a potential spouse and would like to pursue and monogamous courting relationship approved by both sets of parents, then they can have a basis for Bible study and asking the questions you will need to ask her to study.

Sine God has opened your eyes to the profound truths of PRedestination election etc, #1 you need to be studying for you to grow spiritualy and soundly so you do not get ensnared by the devil.

And give her books, and tracts to read on these vital subjects.

If she doesn't get it i would drop the relationship back from courting to casual friends in group settings only.

If she isn't marriage potential for you, then she may be someone elses wife. Leave her alone and go find the help fit one God has for you.

She will be or be open to becoming reformed.

You can continue to give literature to this girl and see if over time she changes.

But before God ask yourself what is it in her you like , if not her godliness and spirituality? As Evie said, she we be the instructor of you kids and
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?
NKJV

__________________
DonP

I would just stay friends with her until she comes around to the reformed faith. More like a brother/sister relationship. If she comes around you can then go further. If she doesn't, then you have at least shared the Gospel with someone. Nothing would be wasted in this situation. However, you must decide that you are doing it for God's glory and not for your own reasons....that will be your lighthouse.

__________________
sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

One idea that popped into my head today: maybe you could work your way through the Westminster Confession with her (since your profile lists that as your theological creed, good choice by the way.) There will of course be many areas of disagreement, but it would prompt conversation and give you both a guided means of digging into the Scripture together. It could serve as a wonderful foundation for a future relationship together, or clearly show that God is pushing you both down different paths. Either way, I think it would be helpful to work your way through a specific creed or book rather than just debating haphazardly!

I thought about this more, and your situation is indeed complicated. As I implied earlier, if you weren't already dating her, it would be clear to me that you shouldn't date her until she is at least becoming Reformed. Yet at this point, she has been encouraged by your dating status to develop feelings for you, so dropping her on the basis of a factor you knew about when you started dating her would not exactly be honorable. If it were at all possible to keep the relationship from progressing further until she is definitely moving towards Reformed theology, that would probably be best. Of course, relationships don't just stay in one place indefinitely...

The problem, from an honor perspective, is that the permanence of your relationship depends on an entirely uncertain event -- her move toward Reformed theology. At the very least, she should know that this move is essential long-term so she can accurately assess whether she could accept Reformed theology and so she can be cautious with her heart.

I would take Evie's last paragraph very seriously; I have often seen, and a couple of times been involved in, relationships which have floundered or ended because one party had stated or unstated expectations of the other which weren't met. It can even become a form of dishonesty, when previously agreed to changes are not met or new requirements are added. Assuming that the other will change their theological beliefs is dangerous, and could tempt them to fake agreement.

All of us who are potentially entering romantic relationships should think and pray about what theological standards we require in a partner. It is not simply a matter of Reformed vs not-Reformed; as these boards often demonstrate, there are often disagreements among Reformed folk, and also, some of us may allow differing degrees of divergence from the Confessions in a partner.

Very few people maintain all the theological beliefs they have as 17 year olds unchanged. Even if you agree with her perfectly now, it is likely that one or both of you will alter your stances on some important issues over time. So, be cautious about forming too close an attachment, but take courage that she may leave behind the nuttier views of her current church as she matures.

__________________
T W Hopper
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church
Currently between churches since PRC closed here - attending Crossroads Christian Church.
Canberra, Australia.

that thought had actually occured to me... I think its a very good idea. It would allow me to grow as well, as I admit i have not studied every finer point of the longer catachism.

The question is- will she listen to your teaching in the (future) home and will she submit to your authority in areas where there may be disparity? In my own marriage, before we actually married, Toni shared with me many issues of the reformed faith that I needed to either agree or disagree with. After study, I found myself in agreement in most cases, but there were still some issues where we didn't agree. However, these issues were not confessional tenants. this is key- complete agreement is not reasonable (though submission in the household is) but as long as within the scope of the confessions you can agree, go for it! Conversation and teaching would be a great way to accomplish this- plus it establishes a habit of biblical devotion, leadership and teaching in the future home.

Theognome

__________________
Bill Cunningham
Covenant Reformed Church, URC
Kansas City
There are three kinds of people- those who can count, and those who can't.

I got saved in college. They handed me a bible and a Hal Lindsay book about the rapture, and I spent the next semester with the college group going to an old time Pentecostal church where they tarried up front at the altar and prayed in tongues for what seemed forever.

I met my husband right after he graduated from Westminster Seminary. We were friends for three years. He used to give me occasional books to read and tell me theological things when subjects came up. I felt drawn to him but boy did we have some theological arguements as friends!!! Looking back I don't know how he stood it, ha. I was amazed when he explained how Presbyterians understood infant baptism, I mean, I wasn't sure if people who believed in that were true Christians.

I don't know if this girl is "the one" but I suggest you give her top quality books and articles to read, or top quality CDs. Maybe start with John Piper who is accepted and liked even by many Arminian charismatics. His biographies of "men of whom the world is not worthy" are marvelous!! Or dive in with Grudem's Systematic theology and see if she'll read a chapter a week with you. He is Baptist and believes in the gifts today, but even the most ardent cessationist paedos will admit that most of his book is just great for introducing the layman to Reformed doctrines. You could start with Ch 16 on God's sovereignty which is a wonderful chapter.

Hubby and I love each other so much, this summer will be 30 years. And I was a total fruitcake when we met (Now I am only partly that way!)

__________________
Lynnie

PCA

Central NJ

Take it slow and give it plenty of time. You do not have to make up your mind to marry her this week. Keep it pure and God will turn your heart like a river.

__________________
Alan Hughes
PCA
Lake Zurich, Illinois

If you think I'm a Hyper-Calvinist, God planned that thought before the foundation of the Earth. If you try to tell me that God only planned some things and not all things, then your problem is with God not me.

I tried dating a woman when she was 17...a charasmatic, and I newly Reformed. I cared about her very deeply, but it wouldn't work out. There was a mixture of reasons why I cared for her...she was very beautiful, sort of broken, and appeared to be godly. After it didn't work out, I realized I had been making excuses for her and trying to justify pursuing her.

I met my wife about 3 months after letting go of the idea of dating the previous girl. My wife was not Reformed when we started dating...by God's grace, she became Reformed when I suggested she simpy read the book of Romans (that was about 9 months into our relationship). God used that. I remember talking to her over the phone and she kept saying "Paul said the same things you've been saying!" Do you think this fixed things for me? Actually, I became a bit distrustful. I thought she may have "changed her mind" in order to please me. Thankfully, that was absolutely NOT the case. She's a different woman from the time I met her 10 1/2 years ago. Think about this: the traits you see in this young lady now may not be the traits you would end up with if you were to marry. If this girl were to convert, you'd have a new woman.

My wife's embrace of the DoG were only an initial blessing...we were both egalitarians, and we started our married life off on the wrong path even though we had our soteriological ducks in a row. This changed, again by God's grace.

I don't think an Arminian wife is a terrible thing if she is submissive and follows where her husband leads. You have a functional Calvinist in that case. I wonder, however, if this girl you're dating is submissive. I have yet to find a woman that sits under the authority of a female pastor to be particularly submissive, in the biblical sense.

You seem to think embracing the DoG will be the clincher for getting the stamp of approval...seek wisdom on this. Ask this young lady to give you her initial response to two items:
1) Patriarchy,
2) Wives submit to your husbands

You'll have your answer at this point.

My Don't treat her or give her the impression you are treating her as though she was a non-christian. Start with "she's a fellow believer in Christ", and proceed cautiously from there.

__________________
Lance G. Marshall
Pastor
Georgetown, Indiana

Luke,
You have been given some good responses here. It is clear also that you must continue to grow in your own understanding also. Have you spoken to your parents , and elders in reference to this situation?
You might also be careful that you take time to carefully work through these teachings and make sure that she is not just trying to tell you what she thinks you want to hear, and that she is clever enough to put up a facade that gives a different impression than the heart reality.
At 17 you have time to slow it down quite a bit. She might not have even heard sound teaching at all at any time! Give her some good sermons to listen to. Give her a confession of faith.
Do her parents attend that church? What do your parents think of this whole situation. God has set up the home for a reason. If your parents are believer's they will be able to offer scriptural guidance.
If she makes progress over time, your friendship might progress also. If not God will provide another person for you in His own time.

__________________
Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

Luke,

In the past 8 years, I've asked this same question more than a few times for myself. To Mr. D'Arienzo, you've gotten some good replies here. I've seen the Lord work in more than several relationships where there was an Arminian/Calvinist-Reformed clash, & some of the relationships were blessed and flourished into a godly marriage. I've also seen them crash & burn when caution wasn't properly exercised. It's important to keep your eyes wide open not only to the doctrines this girl you're dating espouses personally & corporately with her church, but to the way her faith plays out in everyday life (obvious, I know). Your concerns in the possibility of hope for the relationship may not only be doctrinal (as with any relationship). However, as others have stated, you're 17...young enough to take it slow. (Definitely recommended!)

I don't want to get too gnostic or mystic in the sense of suggesting that you just "let go and let God" (although in a limited sense, you should, as He has already ordained who you'll marry), but it is so true that when you delight yourself in Christ, he will give you the desires of your heart... and He will reform those desires which don't please Him and would ultimately harm you. So it goes with relationships. If you're obeying God & seeking Him for growth in grace in Scripture study, fellowship, prayer etc., any raging insufficiencies and insurmountable flaws (whether spiritual or practical) will be made very apparent. He will also right you when you stumble & totter within your relational frames.

One thing that I've observed as being paramount in having a successful relationship at all, especially romantically when doctrines/backgrounds haven't aligned (yet) is to make sure you're not trying to change the other person. Let the Lord do that if He so pleases. Make suggestions, provide resources, but always be aware of the "lips vs. life" issues. Even if the Arminianism goes and the Calvinism is "confessed" so to speak, you still have the obstacle of evaluating authenticity as opposed to lip service. I pray the Lord blesses you as you strive to serve Him! Kudos to you for your wisdom in seeing the importance of alignment of beliefs even in the dating stages of a possible relationship. It's really awesome to see in younger generations...!

That's my times like, 5.

Blessings, brother.

__________________
Annalissa Sheposh
http://www.cc-opc.org

"Rend your heart--and not your garments." Joel 2:13

"Garment-rending & other external signs of religious emotion are easily manifested, & are frequently hypocritical. True repentance is far more difficult, & consequently far less common... "- C.H.Spurgeon

Have you tried inviting her to your church?

__________________
Aaron Josh Wright
Deerbrook Baptist Church, Humble Tx
New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary

1) I would go through the catechism or have some bible study/prayer time with her and discuss these things and even discuss your concerns. I mean if your just sitting there predicting future events and theorising what she thinks about God and how a marriage would work out then your doomed to failure.

2) Keep in mind your not married yet and to expect her to change church now or even soon, is too much. Though like I said you could perhaps discuss that with her if you've been in this relationship for long and it's looking like marriage, e.g. ask - would she willing sometime in the future to change church?

3) Spiritual experiences are not all bad. Many reformed people have gotten over-cautious I think.

4) Share books with her concerning tongues speaking or reformed theology.

5) Reformed theology is not perfect, I don't think the fact that shes an arminian / charismatic should mean that you stop seeing each other. If she loves Jesus and is saved but just misled then I'd say go for it.

6) Most 17 year olds aren't interested in theology as far as I know even church attending ones so it's normal that she should trust her parents who trust the teaching of that church and it's normal that she should trust the teaching of that church.

7) I'd say theres some things that must be agreed upon. The changed personality and life that comes after you get born again. Faith Alone in Christ for salvation. The persons of Godhead, the humanity and deity of Christ and perhaps the rest of the apostles creed is the minimum i'd be looking for.

Just my opinions. Though I kinda had this same situation. I went to a charismatic church for a year, got called out of it by God whilst I still had a girlfriend going there. It was pretty sound solid teaching though, it wasn't like Charismania going on. So I went on sunday to my presbyterian church and attended the youth groups with her at the charismatic church and continued to see her. It didn't work out for several reasons, none of them being that. She loved God and was well saved.

Anyway take care, hope you make the right decision. Pray for wisdom and you will get it.

__________________
Lee Johnston
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Paisley, Scotland
Ephesians 1:4-5
"In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

Then I would say they are too young to be courting.

I don't see that young men and women should play with each other.

If her parents were sound in theology, or in the same denomination or church and both parents agreed the relationship would be good, then the children could court based on their parent's oversight and protection.

But if they do not have this then they must be able to discern sound theology or wait until they are old enough to have an interest and ability.

Again, she will be instructing is kids. Would you want a young woman not able or interested yet in sound theology, but convinced of charismatic practice teaching your children?

Again, she will be instructing is kids. Would you want a young woman not able or interested yet in sound theology, but convinced of charismatic practice teaching your children? - they won't be getting married nor have children at age 17 though. They'res years yet to develope sound theology if he continues.

But if they do not have this then they must be able to discern sound theology or wait until they are old enough to have an interest and ability. - So every christian must come to the conclusion of reformed faith before they are theologically sound then? I think it's quite boastful if we float around thinking were the hieght of theological correctness. What if she reads the bible and comes to the conclusion of arminianism. Is she undecerning and not acceptable as a wife?


If her parents were sound in theology, or in the same denomination or church and both parents agreed the relationship would be good, then the children could court based on their parent's oversight and protection. - Denominations...yeah...for practical purposes it would be good but the church of Jesus Christ is one church therefore if they from 2 different denominations but love Jesus and are born again are you saying they're not capable of oversight in their relationship? Again I find it quite prideful.

I'm not saying they shouldnt have knowledge of their bible and lets say whats contained within the apostles creed and what faith is, and who Jesus is and lets say they accept the trinity. However calling people undecerning and unacceptable because they aren't interested in predestination, election and the doctrines of grace like we are is pride.

Some very good points here.
To Puritanpilgrim, yes, she has been to my church. Im not quite sure what she thinks of it, however.

I have talked to my parents about it. They both love her. They understand that her theology is a problem, but will solve itself if the Lord desires it.

Her parents do go to that heretical church. They are great people, very funny and delightful. Yet I really dont know how well-grounded their theology is. Probably not the most well-educated in theological affairs. I dont really consider it a problem.

Its not pride. Its not about who is right. Its about would you marry a person and let them train your children with those views?
If you would then fine. I suggest you not. Therefore I suggest you not be seeking a wife in one who you can not share these things with and let her know they will be required for the relationship to end in marriage. It would be unkind to her to lead her on thinking there was hope when there isn't.

I see no need for them to be dating, unless they are considering the other as a potential mate.
Those who say it is fine for them to play together alone may not see this as urgent.
There are 17 year olds who marry.
There are 17 year olds unmarried who get pregnant, though they profess to be Christians.
Then what? You marry a woman who is Charismatic.

Really not at all sure what Peacemaker is trying to say. I accept that dating should have the goal of marriage.

But if we say that, at age 17, when most really don't have much theology at all yet, that we wont date anyone other than 5-point Calvinists, id venture to say that that is extremely limiting.

And im definately not going to get her pregnant...

Well is your interpretation of the bible infallible I would ask you peacemaker? and how "right" would the person have to be before they are acceptable. 4 points? 3 points of tulip?

I agree with the statement that it is extremely limiting to say both people in the relationship must be calvinists.

-

I would ask you PeaceMaker, how do you know that over time some parts of say Luke's theology will not be shared with her?

Right now it seems like a lot of people are of the opinion that her and her parents are charismatic and part of a heretical church, so get out of the relationship as soon as possible if shes not willing to change which I find to be an absolutely crazy view.

For me it would be Confessional.

But I am not saying it has to be for anyone else.

Please re check my posts, I said here is the limit one should seek for:

Would you want her to teach your children.

-----------

And Luke I was speaking in general not specifically of you.

After becoming a calvinist, I never dated anyone who wasn't a calvinist. But, honestly my wife and I don't have the exact views everything. She always goes with where I stand, but I don't know that two people will always have the same views on everything. For instance, my wife doesn't agree with war. I think there are times when countries can go to war. This doens't really cause us any problems in our marriage. And neither one of us spend much time trying to convice to other of our perspective. However, calvinism, is ver divisive. I wouldn't say don't have anything to do with her, because she may have alot of great qualities. However, I think this needs to be worked out. Many times, Arminians think Calvinists have a mean hateful God. And those aren't thoughts you want to have about your spouse. I not an extremely formal person. So I think taking her to your church is a good idea. Your not making a big commitment by going to the same church. You can even go in seperate cars, if driving to church is a problem. I took my wife to my church before we started dating, and I discussed the calvinism issue. Taking her to church is a good way to see if she is open to your view of God and to help he become educated in the process. If she can't stand your church, that is proabley a sign that it's not a very good idea. Try opening the Bible to Romans 9, reading it to her, then ask her what she thinks the passage is talking about. That's what I did.

I just texted her what she thought of the verse. Her response was "its very convincing towards predestination, but it depends on how you interpret it."

Not sure what do with that.

Good start.
You might ask her how else could it legitimately be interpreted?

Way ahead of you lol. I am actually quite interested to hear a response.

Perhaps this is not the proper arena to document such a conversation play-by-play, but i will post whatever sort of meaningful conclusion we can come to, either tonight or tommorow.

And, of course, if anyone wants to offer advice, they can post here or PM me.

She's right. Arminians will argue that God predestines a group based on his foreknowledge that they will believe (not that they believe because they are elect and have been regenerated). The issue isn't predestination in itself -- that much is undeniable from Scripture; it's what we mean by predestination that is debated.

ETA: Don't start with predestination -- the U in TULIP flows naturally, but only when it comes after the T. These discussions always start with U and tend to go badly because Arminians and Calvinists don't agree on the meaning of total depravity. Once you accept the depths of the effects of sin, the rest of the petals fall into place quite nicely.

__________________
Jennifer Petrik
Member, Grace Reformation Church
Associate Member, Escondido Reformed Baptist Church
Student, Westminster Seminary California (M.A.H.T.)
Woodland/Escondido, CA
per caliginem

I understand what your saying, Jen. Do you have any good verses that address the matter of total depravity directly, that would perhaps be palatable for a cordial discussion between Arminian and Calvinist, yet at the same time fruitful?

About now im wishing my dad wasnt taking his yearly study break...