» Site Navigation | | | » Online Users: 101 | | 32 members and 69 guests | | ADKing, asc, austinww, Beoga, ChristianHedonist, DMcFadden, gene_mingo, greenbaggins, Grillsy, Hamalas, Iakobos_1071, Jack K, jambo, JoyFullMom, MMasztal, mossy, Puritan Scot, puritanpilgrim, Soonerborn, Southern Presbyterian, T.A.G., Theoretical, Titus35, toddpedlar, westminken | | Most users ever online was 856, 07-06-2007 at 12:19 AM. | |  | 
06-25-2008, 05:56 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cali.
Posts: 3,891
Thanks: 1,996
Thanked 998 Times in 572 Posts
| | | Shepherd and Kline recline for Shepherd's Pie?
Hello All,
My brother-in-law, Rev. Dr. Peter J. Wallace (ordained OPC, ministers in PCA) recommended I read this article he wrote: http://www.peterwallace.org/essays/inheritance.htm
I've read it, and am interested in your thoughts.
In particular, any comments on particular modes of thought, exegesis, etc. within the article.
He would like to get my feedback on it, and I wanted to see if I was missing anything pertinent to discuss before contacting him.
Godspeed,
Adam
__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA
"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."
| 
06-25-2008, 06:11 PM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: La Grange Park, IL
Posts: 1,756
Thanks: 281
Thanked 379 Times in 217 Posts
| | Off topic: I just finished a very enjoyable ancient/medieval church history course with Dr. Wallace.
__________________
Casey, Chicagoland, OPC
| 
06-25-2008, 06:19 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cali.
Posts: 3,891
Thanks: 1,996
Thanked 998 Times in 572 Posts
| |
Yes, Peter was telling me about he grueling coursework :-)
Thanks for sharing! Care to read his other paper and comment? If not, no biggie.
Adam Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyBessette Off topic: I just finished a very enjoyable ancient/medieval church history course with Dr. Wallace.  | | 
06-25-2008, 06:28 PM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: La Grange Park, IL
Posts: 1,756
Thanks: 281
Thanked 379 Times in 217 Posts
| |
I'll try to get to it in the next day or two.  He seems to come at things from a refreshing perspective, so I'll give it a read. | 
06-25-2008, 07:04 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cali.
Posts: 3,891
Thanks: 1,996
Thanked 998 Times in 572 Posts
| |
Yes, please do, and let me know your thoughts.
Adam Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyBessette I'll try to get to it in the next day or two.  He seems to come at things from a refreshing perspective, so I'll give it a read.  | | 
06-25-2008, 09:31 PM
|  | Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger | | Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: CentralLakeMI
Posts: 5,190
Thanks: 74
Thanked 3,362 Times in 1,189 Posts
| |
I generally liked the paper. Although in the present conditions, I am not willing to grant much charity to the Shepherd formulations. Then again, I also do not favor swimming deeply in Kline-waters! So, I find Wallace to be doing a bit of analytic theology here, and drawing on, to use his own terminology, "positive" aspects of both men.
Here's an especially good portion: Quote: |
And this is why Paul insists that there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female. Before Christ, only the free Jewish male can inherit the promises. Gentiles, slaves, and women only inherit the promises through their free, Jewish males. But Jesus Christ IS the free Jewish male, he is the last Adam, the true Israel, and he has included ALL of his people in his inheritance, regardless of gender, race or class.
| Amen.
FWIW, I met Peter many years ago, when I was still in seminary. In addition, Peter served as an intern under my father, but not when I was anywhere around. Today, we are in the same Presbytery. I really respect him, even if we don't agree 100% on every jot and tittle.
__________________ Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the Destroyer Acts 2:36 - 1 Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James 4:12 When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give us
To see ourselves as others see us. --Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? -- | | The Following User Says Thank You to Contra_Mundum For This Useful Post: | | 
06-26-2008, 04:27 PM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 26
Thanks: 2
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
| | |
This is coming from a ‘Klinean’,
I thought it was generally good. Covenant Foundations
“Was it simply a convenient rhetorical tool that God chose from the surrounding cultures? Or is there something about covenant that is rooted in creation itself-or even beyond the creation?”
I do not know if Kline did or did not hold that it was rooted in creation or beyond, I am not sure Kline held that it was just a rhetorical ‘tool’, but I think Wallace is right to look past the Hittite treaties, but I do not know about going into eternity. Wages vs. Inheritance
I do not know why Wallace opposes these two, Kline didn’t. Paul can speak of it both ways see Galatians 3:10-18; Romans 4:1-8, and Luke 10:25-28. Perhaps Wallace just wants to make sure inheritance gets into the concept which I am agreeable with. Sonship vs. Legal
I think it is a false dichotomy. I do not how much this differs from Wallace but I think the question of which is ‘prior’ is a false choice, both are inherent within Covenant. Works vs. Grace
I think Wallace makes a good point about the semantic range of ‘grace’, but I think Kline is right exclude ‘grace’ in the non-just ‘favor’ sense from works based covenants, see Romans 11:6, they are mutually exclusive by what Paul means by them. Concluding Thoughts
As for Irons making covenant just about justification I am unsure that is correct, but even if it is true for Irons it is not true for Klineans in general, you can see Horton’s Covenant and Salvation: Union with Christ, Part One where he goes into a lot of issues posed by Wallace. To tell the truth I am not sure Kline is characterized correctly by Wallace. Perhaps if one has not gone into a lot of what Kline as written and said one might get the ideas Wallace has, but honestly I do not hear a lot that could stick on Kline that Wallace claims he is fault worthy for.
__________________
Tristan Weeks-Galindo
Desert Springs PCA
Tucson, Arizona
| | The Following User Says Thank You to Berit For This Useful Post: | | 
06-26-2008, 04:39 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cali.
Posts: 3,891
Thanks: 1,996
Thanked 998 Times in 572 Posts
| |
Rev. Buchanan,
Yes, I think there is much in Peter that is very admirable, but there are sides I'm not confortable with - which is good.
Shepherd is not as innocuous as I think he may be portrayed in this paper, although, Peter is expressly looking for the good things. I find it reflects somewhat of a hegelian synthesis.
Thanks for your input!
Adam Quote:
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum I generally liked the paper. Although in the present conditions, I am not willing to grant much charity to the Shepherd formulations. Then again, I also do not favor swimming deeply in Kline-waters! So, I find Wallace to be doing a bit of analytic theology here, and drawing on, to use his own terminology, "positive" aspects of both men.
Here's an especially good portion: Quote: |
And this is why Paul insists that there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female. Before Christ, only the free Jewish male can inherit the promises. Gentiles, slaves, and women only inherit the promises through their free, Jewish males. But Jesus Christ IS the free Jewish male, he is the last Adam, the true Israel, and he has included ALL of his people in his inheritance, regardless of gender, race or class.
| Amen.
FWIW, I met Peter many years ago, when I was still in seminary. In addition, Peter served as an intern under my father, but not when I was anywhere around. Today, we are in the same Presbytery. I really respect him, even if we don't agree 100% on every jot and tittle. | | 
06-26-2008, 04:41 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cali.
Posts: 3,891
Thanks: 1,996
Thanked 998 Times in 572 Posts
| |
Tristan,
Thanks for your input!
It is possible that Kline is not characterized properly; perhaps Rev. Wallace is choosing the parts that serve his present purpose; not sure.
I can assure you, however, that he has read all of his material, and has undoubtedly understood it well. Very bright guy; but like us all, we each sift through the facts and find what we like.
Cheers,
Adam Quote:
Originally Posted by Berit This is coming from a ‘Klinean’,
I thought it was generally good. Covenant Foundations
“Was it simply a convenient rhetorical tool that God chose from the surrounding cultures? Or is there something about covenant that is rooted in creation itself-or even beyond the creation?”
I do not know if Kline did or did not hold that it was rooted in creation or beyond, I am not sure Kline held that it was just a rhetorical ‘tool’, but I think Wallace is right to look past the Hittite treaties, but I do not know about going into eternity. Wages vs. Inheritance
I do not know why Wallace opposes these two, Kline didn’t. Paul can speak of it both ways see Galatians 3:10-18; Romans 4:1-8, and Luke 10:25-28. Perhaps Wallace just wants to make sure inheritance gets into the concept which I am agreeable with. Sonship vs. Legal
I think it is a false dichotomy. I do not how much this differs from Wallace but I think the question of which is ‘prior’ is a false choice, both are inherent within Covenant. Works vs. Grace
I think Wallace makes a good point about the semantic range of ‘grace’, but I think Kline is right exclude ‘grace’ in the non-just ‘favor’ sense from works based covenants, see Romans 11:6, they are mutually exclusive by what Paul means by them. Concluding Thoughts
As for Irons making covenant just about justification I am unsure that is correct, but even if it is true for Irons it is not true for Klineans in general, you can see Horton’s Covenant and Salvation: Union with Christ, Part One where he goes into a lot of issues posed by Wallace. To tell the truth I am not sure Kline is characterized correctly by Wallace. Perhaps if one has not gone into a lot of what Kline as written and said one might get the ideas Wallace has, but honestly I do not hear a lot that could stick on Kline that Wallace claims he is fault worthy for. | |  | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | |