Salvation Pre-Christ

Jake · #1 (**permalink**) 10-12-2009, 10:51 PM

I realize this probably shows my naïveté in a lot of theological matters and relates back to another thing, but I would appreciate some information, Scripture, and sources of reading on this:

How was salvation obtained pre-Christ, including outside of Israel?

Grillsy · #2 (**permalink**) 10-12-2009, 10:53 PM

I would recommend you start with Hebrews and Galatians. Pithy response I know. Others will now come after me and deliver a theological treatise.

TeachingTulip · #3 (**permalink**) 10-12-2009, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

I realize this probably shows my naïveté in a lot of theological matters and relates back to another thing, but I would appreciate some information, Scripture, and sources of reading on this:

How was salvation obtained pre-Christ, including outside of Israel?

Salvation from God did not source from the nation of Israel, but salvation from God sourced from His promises of grace which would be provided by a Savior who would crush Satan and all evil, as promised to Eve in the very beginning. Genesis 3:15

Jake · #4 (**permalink**) 10-12-2009, 10:58 PM

How were people saved before Christ? What does it mean in this sermon by Paul?:

"The times of ignorance God overlooked" (Acts 17:30)

Brad · #5 (**permalink**) 10-12-2009, 11:31 PM

There is no thing that existed "pre-Christ". He is eternal. Salvation prior to His humiliation was as it is now, trusting in the alien righteousness He confers upon the objects of His mercy, His propitiation of our sin, the gift of new life He obtained for us through His resurrection, and His intercession on our behalf at the Father's right hand. The distinction is that their faith was forward-looking to that place in history, as well as to His return. Ours falls between those events, and therefore enjoys the benefits of a more accurate understanding of an expanded covenant, albeit not at all complete.

Jake · #6 (**permalink**) 10-12-2009, 11:41 PM

So hoping toward the future atonement on the cross was efficacious before the event took place? The cross was efficacious eternally even before the actual sacrifice?

TeachingTulip · #7 (**permalink**) 10-12-2009, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

So hoping toward the future atonement on the cross was efficacious before the event took place? The cross was efficacious eternally even before the actual sacrifice?

Yes. The efficaciousness of salvation is always according to faith in the promises of God.

rbcbob · #8 (**permalink**) 10-13-2009, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

So hoping toward the future atonement on the cross was efficacious before the event took place? The cross was efficacious eternally even before the actual sacrifice?

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Christusregnat · #9 (**permalink**) 10-13-2009, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

So hoping toward the future atonement on the cross was efficacious before the event took place? The cross was efficacious eternally even before the actual sacrifice?

Jake,

I realize that this may be tautological, but here's the confession's position:

Quote:

V. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the Gospel:[9] under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all foresignifying Christ to come;[10] which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,[11] by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called the Old Testament.[12]

VI. Under the Gospel, when Christ, the substance,[13] was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper:[14] which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity, and less outward glory, yet, in them, it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy,[15] to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles;[16] and is called the New Testament.[17] There are not therefore two covenants of grace, differing in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations.[18]

Quote:

[9] 2CO 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

[10] SEE HEB 8-10, ROM 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also. COL 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 1CO 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.

[11] 1CO 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. HEB 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. JOH 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

[12] GAL 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[13] COL 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

[14] MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 1CO 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

[15] HEB 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. JER 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

[16] MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. EPH 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

[17] LUK 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

[18] GAL 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. ACT 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. ROM 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. PSA 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. ROM 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead. HEB 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Eoghan · #10 (**permalink**) 10-13-2009, 05:31 AM

I was reading through Mark 6 and was puzzled to read the message that the disciples preached - repentance! This is the same "gospel" that John the Baptist preached it is an "old testament" gospel and a "new testament" gospel as well.

The difference post-crucifixion/post-resurrection is that the "judicial mechanism", the propitiating sacrifice is revealed.

What worries me is that we have forgotten the original message was one of repentance. Yes the cross now explains how grace accomplishes salvation and the call is to repent and believe. Repentance is still there.

Compare this to todays emphasis on believing (without repenting)!

OT saints repented and trusted without knowing the "mechanism". NT saints repent and trust in Jesus as the propitiation of their sins.

JennyG · #11 (**permalink**) 10-13-2009, 06:45 AM

I have often wondered exactly what the "informational" content of the Gospel was, that Jesus preached before he had died for our sins.

Mark 1 v 14-15 for eg says
....Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
And saying....repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I know what I believe now, - but what precisely (at that point) were they to believe?

Michael Doyle · #12 (**permalink**) 10-13-2009, 07:27 AM

salvation was and is obtained through trusting in the promises of God. As stated, God made a provision for forgiveness through the promise of a godly seed in Genesis 3:15. His godly line through Seth, by faith extended to Noah, whom by faith in the promises of God, became a covenantal mediator. Through him, God preserved the covenant of creation through his household. (2 Peter 2: 4-5, 9) God then elected Abraham as the father of His people and gave the promise through him to all his descendants by faith. God, through Abraham, gave the seal of His covenant and made a people of purpose (Romans 4:11) Abraham and the patriarchs were to be a missionaries for Yahweh, exhibiting the goodness of God and redemption through Him. God then used Moses to deliver his people from Egypt and delivered by His grace the law on Sanai. He was setting apart a people of purity. What is important to remember here is, God redeemed His people from captivity and then gave them the law not the other way around. In this the Lord was creating a chosen race, a royal priesthood and a holy nation (2 Peter 9-10). All who were saved were of faith. The people clamor idolatrously to be as other nations and reject Yahwehs kingship and by His grace he establishes the office of king with an eye towards the preparation of the ultimate King. Those who are faithful in the covenant are saved by faith. All are ultimately saved in faith in the Messiah to come and through the drama of redemption.

That is my first year seminary attempt at explaining it.

***toddpedlar*** · #13 (**permalink**) 10-13-2009, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyG

I have often wondered exactly what the "informational" content of the Gospel was, that Jesus preached before he had died for our sins.

Mark 1 v 14-15 for eg says
....Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
And saying....repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I know what I believe now, - but what precisely (at that point) were they to believe?

At every point in human history they were to believe. Abraham believed God and was accounted righteous. The command to believe God (i.e. to Trust Him at His Word) has always been there. Repentance is a natural fruit of a wholesale giving over to that trust... the command to repentance is NOT exclusive of or to be separated from the exhortation to belief/trust/faith. It isn't now, nor was it ever.

Wanderer · #14 (**permalink**) 10-13-2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eoghan

I was reading through Mark 6 and was puzzled to read the message that the disciples preached - repentance! This is the same "gospel" that John the Baptist preached it is an "old testament" gospel and a "new testament" gospel as well.

The difference post-crucifixion/post-resurrection is that the "judicial mechanism", the propitiating sacrifice is revealed.

What worries me is that we have forgotten the original message was one of repentance. Yes the cross now explains how grace accomplishes salvation and the call is to repent and believe. Repentance is still there.

Compare this to todays emphasis on believing (without repenting)!

OT saints repented and trusted without knowing the "mechanism". NT saints repent and trust in Jesus as the propitiation of their sins.

It's easier to preach "just Believe on Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Which is true. But if you believe Christ is King and that you are a sinner in need of His grace, part of believing is to repent of your sins. Which means that you must turn away from your sins with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

To me, if someone says they believe, and they have not repented of their sins, or show evidence that they have repented, then I would ask that person if they truly believed.

Amazing Grace · #15 (**permalink**) 10-13-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

How were people saved before Christ? What does it mean in this sermon by Paul?:

"The times of ignorance God overlooked" (Acts 17:30)

One important truth that cannot be overlooked is the OT saints heard the Gospel. It was preached to Abraham according to Christ and Paul. They knew of the Messiah. They knew of their eternal redeemer was to be found in the promise of the Almighty God. It came in seed form, but through the grace of God and His forbearance, He saved them in Christ's eternal death. The Gospel has always been and always will be.

fralo4truth · #16 (**permalink**) 10-13-2009, 09:54 AM

There must be a uniform salvation across the two testaments of the bible. Otherwise, we would be guilty of some form of dispensationalism. As C.I. Scofield would have us to believe, "under law man became righteous by doing righteousness".

The effectual atonement of Christ, though legally done in time after many generations of men had arisen, had been communicated to all the elect successfully in prior ages. In the mind and purpose of God the redemptive work of His Son had already been accomplished, for the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8), prior to any possible dispensational ties.

"And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." (Zech. 14:8).

Richard Tallach · #17 (**permalink**) 10-13-2009, 10:51 AM

The knowledge and understanding of believers regarding how God was going to save them varied B.C. as it does now.

The important thing was that they had a sure promise from God that God was willing and able to be their Saviour from sin, and that they trusted in that, rather than their own righteousness to justify them.

There is plenty of evidence in the sacrificial system that God was going to do this through penal substitutionary atonement.

There is information through the progressive revelation of Scripture from Gen. 3:15 onwards that God was going to be the Saviour of His people by means of a promised Anointed One and there is increasing Scriptural data about this Maschiach as the O.T. progresses.

How many of the believers put it all together in their minds before Christ was crucified and rose from the dead is another Q. Probably none. None of us have put it fully together in our minds. Jesus said that Abraham saw Christ's day and rejoiced. How many believers saw Christ's day as clearly as Abraham? Whether they did or not, they had the same faith as Abraham, but maybe not always as great content to their faith.

Salvation doesn't depend on perfect knowledge but on faith in what God says about Himself, not just faith in God as Creator/Sustainer and Providential Governor, but faith in God as our Redeemer/Saviour. Many today will agree that God is their Creator, but do not look to God as their Saviour.

Re other nations apart from Israel, after the Flood the other nations, eventually lost their faith in the God of the Bible, and in any saving faith and hope in Him and descended into superstitions, idolatry and false/perverted worship.

Anthropologists have found traces of a primitive understanding of the true God, in the various tribes they have studied, in that however polytheistic and animistic they become they always know of a big, god in the sky, whom they can no longer access.

The nineteenth century theory of the evolution of religion(s) that polytheism evolved from animism and that monotheism evolved from polytheism, has been shown to be false, not only by the Bible but also in "the field."

I don't know what the Apostle Paul meant when he said that God winked at these times of ignorance.

Elsewhere the Apostle teaches that all men - even those without Scripture - are morally responsible before God, because all men have an innate knowledge of God. No-one is without some light. So he can't be meaning that those without the Bible will not be judged. Maybe he means they will be judged less severely than those of us who have the Bible and reject it.

carlgobelman · #18 (**permalink**) 10-13-2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

So hoping toward the future atonement on the cross was efficacious before the event took place? The cross was efficacious eternally even before the actual sacrifice?

For the most part, "yes." The point is that salvation is always based on the amount of revelation at a given point in redemptive history. So OT saints would not have had any conception of a "future atonement on the cross." Their faith was forward looking, but much of the OT 'gospel' was in types and shadows interspersed throughout OT worship.

rbcbob · #19 (**permalink**) 10-13-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlgobelman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

So hoping toward the future atonement on the cross was efficacious before the event took place? The cross was efficacious eternally even before the actual sacrifice?

For the most part, "yes." The point is that salvation is always based on the amount of revelation at a given point in redemptive history. So OT saints would not have had any conception of a "future atonement on the cross." Their faith was forward looking, but much of the OT 'gospel' was in types and shadows interspersed throughout OT worship.

I would say rather that salvation was always based upon substitutionary atonement, however dimly understood. "God will provide" (Gen 22), "the scape-goat" (Lev 16) all of which pointed the covenant people to that ultimate sacrifice for sins, Jesus Christ. As someone pointed out above with Abraham, the OC man or woman needed to "believe God" in order to be justified.

And thus rather than say that salvation is always based on the amount of revelation given, I would say that salvation is always based on believing God Who alone saves sinners.

Jake · #20 (**permalink**) 10-14-2009, 07:49 PM

If salvation is found on believing in God's grace and not necessarily on Christ's sacrifice, why then was the actual sacrifice of Christ necessary?

Richard Tallach · #21 (**permalink**) 10-14-2009, 08:18 PM

Faith has different elements

Notitia - the content or data of faith from God and His Word.

Ascensus - ascent to the data. You agree that the data from God are true.

Fiducia - placing one's trust for salvation in the data to which one has given ascent.

Old Testament believers had faith in the same God that we have faith in as Lord and Saviour. That God was the same Triune God we believe in, including the Son Who became Man, and the Spirit that was poured out at Pentecost. The Old Testament believers had a more dim view of God than we have, few, if any, maybe realised God was going to become Man, or that the Spirit was going to be poured out.

They had less data about Him and how He was going to save them than we have but they were saved just as we are.

How much data do you need from God in order to be saved ? Just a clear divine word that He is willing and able to justify you and save you from your sins if you put your trust in Him and turn from your sins.

We of course have much more notitia than that.

Salvation for OT believers was based on Christ's sacrifice, but how much would they be able to tell you about Christ's sacrifice?

It doesn't matter. They trusted God's Word that He would save them by providing a substitute. They didn't need to know all the wonderful details that we know.

They didn't need to know that His name was Jesus of Nazareth, that He was God and Man and that He died on a Cross as Priest and Sacrifice.

***Contra_Mundum*** · #22 (**permalink**) 10-15-2009, 11:48 AM

Gal 3:8 "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed."

Note that Scripture speaks of the gospel in some sense being the possesion of OT era believers.

However, what sense is that? The difference between the NT gospel (the good news of Jesus Christ) and the OT message concerning Christ is the notion of "promise."

That is to say, that the "gospel" of the OT was the PROMISE of the gospel. The gospel-proper is the ANNOUNCEMENT that the promise has COME TRUE.

John the Baptist (the last OT prophet) could be out there preaching, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand," that is, its arrival is imminent, looming. And JESUS could say, "Repent, and believe the gospel." (Mk.1:15)

**PuritanCovenanter** · #23 (**permalink**) 10-15-2009, 04:22 PM

The book 'The Marrow of Modern Divinity' does such a wonderful job at explaining how the Covenant of Grace was administered and how the Patriarchs knew salvation by faith alone how they saw Christ before his incarnation. I highly, highly, highly recommend this book. It is also on sale for an unbeatable price right now.

Westminster Bookstore - Reformed Books - Low Prices - Flat Fee UPS Shipping - Marrow of Modern Divinity (Hardcover) by Edward Fisher 9781845504793

Quote:

(Joh 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

(Joh 8:57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

(Joh 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Your question is answered pretty in depth by this book written in 1646. It is simply one of the most amazing books I have read.