I was getting no help when I posted this on a different thread so I thought I would start a new one.

I have been struggling lately with this issue:

Is it possible that God could give a spirit of slumber on a national level?
Is it possible that blessings given to a nation could become a snare to that nation?

IOW, if a nation makes vows to God (as our American forefathers did) and is blessed by God but later begins to trust in those blessings rather than the blessor (as Israel did) could God blind them on a national level? (except for a faithful remnant, of course)

Is the national blindness of Israel a fulfilment of specific prophecy or is it a 'general principle'?

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Yes, I believe He still blinds nations who are in rebellion and unbelief. I preached on the Parable of the Sower from Mark 4 this past Lord's Day. Jesus quotes from Isaiah 6, where God tells the Prophet He will cause the nation to remain in their blindness and unbelief. There are certainly evidences of this in the Old Testament. I think that there are nations today who are blind. If you look at the progress of the gospel, why are there nations (Africa) coming to Christ while in other places the gospel does not seem to penetrate. Only the LORD can remove the blindness of nations and cause them to see the truth. Excellent question to ponder. I have recently thought of this myself as an American pastor ministering in Eastern Canada.

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Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia

I think it's very possible this nation has been hardened just has Pharoah was.

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1689 Baptist Confession

Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley, Wilderness Road Baptist Assembly.
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann.
www.wildernessroadbaptist.org

Jer 3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

I don't think so. The concept of nation was unique to the OT, where peoples were co-existing in relationship to Israel. Israel who was under covenant with God. Covenant that was temporal/physical in nature. That covenant/Mosaic is over. That covenant promised real physical events regarding covenant obedience/disobedience. Paul in Romans is explaining the why of events relating to covenant Israel in the OT.

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Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ

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~James Helbert~, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

The concept of Nation is unique to God at all times. God created all of mankind to be in covenant with him. At creation He gave the creation or covenant mandate that we are to rule and fill the earth to His glory. The covenant is still binding today. The Abrahamic covenant as well as the Mosaic covenant is spiritual. The LORD has promised that the blessings of Abraham are ours in Christ (Galatians 3 & 4). The Great Commission was given in Matthew 28 to make disciples of the Nations. I am surprised you were able to join the Puritan Board, considering you just affirmed dispensationalism.

Not dispensational at all. God did not intend all mankind to be in Mosaic covenant with Him. Israel he has uniquely loved. You are missing it even as your post confirms my opinion. It is as you say spiritual. And as you say it is now for all nations unlike the old. You are saying the mosaic covenant is still in force today? Are you coming from a theonomist point of view? The mods will let me know if they see my memership in question and I will gladly yield to their opinion.

According to your view, then, the US is not in a covenant with God in the same way Israel was and is therefore not under the the same threatenings?

I think the visible Church should be likened to Israel, as opposed to the United States (or any geographical entity). And yes, I do believe God blinds nations via the means of individuals (think Romans 1 of men suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, then God giving them over to their wickedness).

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Yes, exactly. Israel was the only nation/people ever in covenant with God as prescribed in the Mosaic. This reminds me of those who like to cite "if my people.....I will heaL their land". It is a mistake to see America or any other nation as able to recieve this promise. It is to be taken spiritually in the New, the dividing wall has been torn down. God knows no nations in the New, just individuals who are the true Israel under the Abrahamic sense.

Agreed, not nations but individuals now. God is saving some from all ethnos. The dividing wall has been torn down. In the old it was Israel distinguished from all others/non Israel. And to the original post it is a specific application to Israel not other nations. However we know that God has actively blinded all who do not come to Him. Unless you prefer the passive description he has not granted "eyes to see" or "ears to hear".

The bolded part could be a debatable assertion.

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Brad
PCA Member
Virginia

Agreed.

Is it not true that all men, by nature are blinded to the gospel? If we are dead in our sins, are we not therefore blind?

The reverse of blinding is true; God supernaturally causes some people groups to come en masse to Him. I see this in my geographic context--when suddenly groups bitterly opposed to the gospel embrace it due to some dream, vision, or revelation. Then they seek further understanding from the scriptures.

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

This would have been true for Israel as well yet the Bible does say that God blinded them.

Still, but the Bible also says God blinded the Egyptians, as you can see from Romans 9.

We've example both before the Christ's death and resurrection and after of nations having had different degrees of understanding, like the Assyrians in Jonah and the Maltese in Acts, so it would, at least arguably, seem to be something not affected by a specific covenant, or other special treatment.

But going into Iraq!!! Even the Russians and French made us seem like blind men in comparison!

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Tim Vaughan, 48 years old, member PCA church but currently attending EV Free church. San Luis Obispo County, California.

Kmk,
This is an interesting question. I think it is not easy to give a simple answer as the first few posts already raise several other issues.

You ask-. The verse quoted in Romans 11:9-10 is unquestionably a specific prophecy concerning 1st century National Israel, not just because He quotes from the messianic psalm 69.
The whole context of Romans 9-15 answers the question of national Israel and the promise of God.
In Chapter 10:18-21 the quotes of Psalm 19, Deut 32:21, ISA 65:1 clearly demonstrate that Physical Israel itself, has now become a final -type if you will. The one-new man of Ephesians 2, Jew/Gentile are now the holy nation ,The Israel of God. Because this is now true, I do not believe that God no longer recognizes the nations and Kings of the earth.
The Judgement to come speaks of nations, and the individualsMt 25:32.
1Tim 2:2 tells us that we are to pray for national leaders, that we may live in godliness and peace.
In the OT. physical Israel did have a unique relationship as a nation.Deut 7;6 and Amos 3;2.
They lost that special relationship Isa.5/Mt 21:43.
God is now dealing with The True Israel now.-Jesus The Lord- and those who comprise his body.
God still opens eyes and ears, or closes them as all nations are under His rule Psalm 67.
The post millenial writers are correct about the events of 70 ad. The good amill writers also agree. I am just not certain of how much of the spiritual impacts the physical reign of the King here and now.

Blessings and gifts given to any nation and mis-used,Like Samson's gifts and strengths can also be removed based on how they treat the individual assemblies and the christians in them.
Without any "direct word of knowledge"[ I am not Pat Robertson.] I am personally sure that the tsunamis in the indian ocean was a direct result of muslim persecution of the Christians there.World magazine had put a map containing Muslim countries that persecute christians,and that area of the world was a hot bed of persecution for christian churches and pastors.
One month before the tsunamis,there was an article where it ended with the christians praying for God to intervene on their behalf- you can look this article up on world magazine archives. It mentioned Colombo, Shri Lanka, and all of those coastal towns where they were burning churches.
The map of the persecution was the exact map where the tsunamis hit.

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Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.