I noticed that some subscribe to the 3FU instead of the WCF. I had always thought the WCF was considered an 'improvement' over the 3FU. What are some of the reasons churches would subscribe to 3FU instead of WCF?

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I was taught the same thing, that the WCF improved upon the 3 forms, that it is more complete.

It is mostly the Dutch or Continental churches that use the 3 forms and the ones I know don't seem as fond of the WCF. Whereas the WCF is predominantly used by Presbyterians.

I believe the 3 forms was written by the Dutch area churches and the WCF committee was mostly Presbyterians.

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Erick Bohndorf PCA, KS
http://qayaqtraveler.blogspot.com/
Jeremiah 23:16,17, "Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. They speak visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. 17They say continually to those who despise the word of the Lord, ‘It shall be well with you’; and to everyone who stubbornly follows his own heart, they say, ‘No disaster shall come upon you."

I presume you're asking about churches which are outside the Continental Reformed traditions (e.g. outside the RCA/CRC/URCNA/OCRC/CanRef/RCUS denominations, which derive from that branch of Reformed Christendom).
Those denominations will all hold to the 3FU for historical reasons (and since they wouldn't necessarily agree that the Westminster Standards represent an improvement). Similarly, churches deriving from Scottish Presbyterian roots will all hold the WCF (though not necessarily would all agree that the Westminster Standards are necessarily an improvement).

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://semperubi.rtrc.net

"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)


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Some of us come from churches of Dutch background. Therefore, those brethren subscribe to those standards, while those from a Scottish background adhere to the Westminster documents.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

That is correct Erick. The only thing that truly separates the 3FU and WCF are there geographical, chronological, and political connections.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Man's attempt to enter heaven on his own terms places him instead in hell." -- R.J. Rushdoony

I posted my above post before I noticed Todd's comments.

I did as well.

I'm not sure that the Westminster Confession, by itself is an improvement over the 3FU, but I do think the Westminster Standards, together as one, are more thorough than the 3FU (especially when the Larger Catechism is considered).

I was raised on the 3FU and still have a very fond place for them, though I now reference the Westminster Standards more often.

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Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

I use the Heidelberg Catechism quite regularly. I also like the Second Helvetic which is not part of the 3FU

Ben, what is a good, clean online version of the Second Helvetic Confession? Are there any that include Scripture proofs?

I have studied both. I agree that the Westminster Standards are more comprehensive than 3FU.

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~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
Teacher Aide, Union County Public Schools, NC
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

No, I would not say the WCOF is an improvement it is simply a different standard. Many reformed denominations would subscribe to both the WCOF and The Three Forms of Unity. There would be no contradiction between the two standards, but as Daniel stated it has to do with the background of the framers. These standards were all written at different times and for different situations.

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Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia

Therein lies a problem for some people. We must remember that there are areas of doctrine that Christians are free to disagree over. Some believe that the WCF forces one to adhere to certain beliefs that Christians are free to disagree over (e.g.the Pope being the Antichrist). Hence, the WCF potentially splits up believers who should be publicly unified (as an expression of their unity in Christ). It can be a pity that when believers have so much of the reformed faith in common their confession forces them to be apart institutionally.

Blessings.

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Marty

From Creation to New Creation via Redemption

I guess that all depends on your definition of 'Reformed'.

I have heard this criticism of the WCF/LBC as well but it usually comes from the anti-confessional camp. What are the criteria for establishing what goes into a confession and what is left out?

Are you sure? There is some differing opinions regarding the means of grace. The Scots say three the Dutch say two.

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--chRis
Psalm 115:1

Christopher Reeder
Husband to Kara, Father to Abigail (7), Caleb (6), Grace (4 1/2), Zoë (2 1/2), Elijah (1) and Baby Girl due 8/6/08

Member: Pilgrim Presbyterian Church (OPC), Raleigh, NC

Question 82 of the Heidelberg Catechism... Marriage Divorce Remarriage

I like the 3FU, especially the Canons of Dordt and the Heidelberg Catechism... My church, though, is WCF-dominant, although the Canons are often referred to in sermons, etc. I have therefore, but not for ethnic reasons as this is the U.S. and ours is becoming an "indigenously American" church, thrown in my lot with the WCF, except for one or two things here and there.

Didn't the newer version of the WCF expunge the language regarding the Pope being the Antichrist? I was told that in the long ago, when I was a member of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. Are we supposed to state in a confession who "the Antichrist" is - or are there many Antichrists? (1 John 2:18; 2 John 7 et alii...)

Also, I have this question, as I'm "just learning" in so many aspects: why are confessions or catechisms so relied upon? Can a person just be a thoroughly Reformed Christian and rely upon the Bible alone? Why and/or why not? (Having been forced to memorize the Baltimore Catechism in grade school, I sort of freak when I hear catechisms and confessions being so heavily depended upon... )

Thank you, Pastor Klein, for starting this thread.

Margaret

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Margaret
Free Church of Scotland [Continuing]
Michigan

"He must increase, but I must decrease." - John 3:30

Relying on the confessions and relying the Bible are not mutually exclusive. The church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) not individual Christians. The confessions are simply a systematic representation of the church's understanding of Biblical truth.

Also, the confessions allow us to have discussions about large doctrines because we are already convinced of the truth of the details. We can discuss the differences between justification and sanctification, for example, without reinventing the wheel by quoting Rom chapters 3-8 each time.

Rich has written a very good defense of confessionalism on the home page of PB.

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Rich
Okinawa, Japan

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I thought it was the other way around: the Dutch acknowledge the Word and the Sacraments, whereas Wesminster includes Prayer. Someone help!

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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

This may explain the old adage about Baptists being Methodists with shoes, and Presbyterians being Baptists who can read. To round out the adage, Lutherans might qualify as Presbyterians who drink to excess, and Episcopalians as Lutherans who know when to say when. - D.G. Hart

Woops, you are right, I got them backwards:

Of course it is better. It is the standard of the Scottish church, and all things Scottish are (by definition) the bes