Keach and the Regulative Principle

JM · #1 (**permalink**) 04-03-2009, 10:41 PM

Does the 1689 confess the regulative principle and if so, did Keach ever explain his view on introducing hymns not found in scripture into church services? He was a signing of the 1689, wasn't he?

Thanks.

j

Glenn Ferrell · #2 (**permalink**) 04-04-2009, 12:21 AM

The LBC seems to permit hymns where the WCF does not. WCF XXI:

IV. Prayer is to be made for things lawful, and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter; but not for the dead, nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.

V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear; the sound preaching, and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God with understanding, faith, and reverence; singing of psalms with grace in the heart; as, also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ; are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: besides religious oaths, and vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasion; which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.

LBC XXII:

Paragraph 3. Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one part of natural worship, is by God required of all men.8 But that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son,9 by the help of the Spirit,10 according to his will;11 with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love, and perseverance; and when with others, in a known tongue.12
8 Ps. 95:1-7, 65:2
9 John 14:13,14
10 Rom. 8:26
11 1 John 5:14
12 1 Cor. 14:16,17

Paragraph 4. Prayer is to be made for things lawful, and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter;13 but not for the dead,14 nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.15
13 1 Tim. 2:1,2; 2 Sam. 7:29
14 2 Sam. 12:21-23
15 1 John 5:16

Paragraph 5. The reading of the Scriptures,16 preaching, and hearing the Word of God,17 teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in our hearts to the Lord;18 as also the administration of baptism,19 and the Lord's supper,20 are all parts of religious worship of God, to be performed in obedience to him, with understanding, faith, reverence, and godly fear; moreover, solemn humiliation, with fastings,21 and thanksgivings, upon special occasions, ought to be used in an holy and religious manner.22
16 1 Tim. 4:13
17 2 Tim. 4:2; Luke 8:18
18 Col. 3:16; Eph. 5:19
19 Matt. 28:19,20
20 1 Cor. 11:26
21 Esther 4:16; Joel 2:12
22 Exod. 15:1-19, Ps. 107

Of course the latter is subject to their understanding of “Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.” But, the deliberate modification of Westminster indicated some difference in view.

natewood3 · #3 (**permalink**) 04-05-2009, 11:55 PM

When did Baptists begin using musical instruments in their churches?

Glenn Ferrell · #4 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 01:20 PM

When you find out, I’d like to know.

My guess, musical instruments came into most American Protestant churches in the late 1800's when they were able to afford organs.

Girardeau, Presbyterian, published Instrumental Music in the Worship of the Church, arguing against it, in 1888.

http://www.covenanter.org/Girardeau/...entalmusic.htm

Blueridge Believer · #5 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 01:25 PM

John Gill was EP.

Re4mdant · #6 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 01:31 PM

I thought this EP stuff was of limits

***NaphtaliPress*** · #7 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 02:07 PM

You can say the words; just no discussions of EP vs. nonEP. Actually I thought the mods discussed lifting this; I'll look into it.

Duncan · #8 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 03:42 PM

I do hope this ban is lifted truly do not understand why its there.
I enjoy and believe benefit from different views, being an EP man I would love to hear other views. I confess I love the psalms and am saddened that I am unable to share here some of the many benefits of believing as I do.

**Herald** · #9 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan

I do hope this ban is lifted truly do not understand why its there.
I enjoy and believe benefit from different views, being an EP man I would love to hear other views. I confess I love the psalms and am saddened that I am unable to share here some of the many benefits of believing as I do.

Brother, I love the psalms too. Not being EP doesn't prevent me for singing and enjoying them.

Duncan · #10 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 03:52 PM

Forgive me Bill I in no way meant to imply those like yourself do not love the psalms. I am afraid however I am according to the rules unable to say anything further.

Glenn Ferrell · #11 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

You can say the words; just no discussions of EP vs. nonEP. Actually I thought the mods discussed lifting this; I'll look into it.

Yes, especially given the anticipated debate didn't happen, and I understand is not going to happen, such a restriction makes no sense.

Thanks for looking into it.

***NaphtaliPress*** · #12 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 04:09 PM

The hiatus was in place because the EP discussions were quite numerous and had grown contentious; so a halt was appropriate. The hiatus and the note to that effect are lifted now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan

I do hope this ban is lifted truly do not understand why its there.
I enjoy and believe benefit from different views, being an EP man I would love to hear other views. I confess I love the psalms and am saddened that I am unable to share here some of the many benefits of believing as I do.

JM · #13 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by natewood3

When did Baptists begin using musical instruments in their churches?

Quote:

The circumstances attending the innovation in question among my people, which was rather pleasing than offensive to the whole concern, may be thus related: As yet there was no other house of worship in the place, and our choir of singers were making vigorous efforts in behalf of their department, in connection with the Mozart Society, which for many years occupied an important position in the singing line, and frequently had concerts of a very popular character, which were always held in our house of worship. In aid of these performances a small organ was obtained by a joint-stock company, which, in the end, became a permanent fixture of the house. This clever little concern, still alive in another congregation, took the place of all the inferior cymbals on which our singers hitherto depended for instrumental aid, and by degrees became a favorite with all the people however much some of them had previously been biased against any artificial aid in the melody of the sanctuary, and indeed, to the attractions of the gallery, rather than the pulpit, some people slyly ascribed the full houses which we generally enjoyed. Primitive Baptist Online - 50 Years Among The Baptists-Chapter 22

Quote:

Introduction of Instruments

See also: A cappella

In the early nineteenth century, the Revd R. William Ritchie of St. Andrew's Church, Glasgow, attempted to introduce an organ into his church, but was informed by the Presbytery of Glasgow that "the use of organs in the public worship of God is contrary to the law of the land and constitution of our Established Church."[8]

In 1863, the Revd Robert Lee introduced a harmonium into worship at Greyfriars Kirk, Edinburgh. Lee defended instrumental music at the 1864 General Assembly, who declared that "such innovations should only be put down when they interfered with the peace of the Church and harmony of congregations". A pipe organ was subsequently installed in Greyfriars, and first used in 1865. Presbyterian worship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll keep reading.

**Herald** · #14 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan

Forgive me Bill I in no way meant to imply those like yourself do not love the psalms. I am afraid however I am according to the rules unable to say anything further.

Feel free to comment. The restriction has been lifted.

**KMK** · #15 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 06:31 PM

LBC Chapter 21

Quote:

Paragraph 1. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all; is just, good and does good to all; and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart and all the soul, and with all the might. But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God, is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imagination and devices of men, nor the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representations, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scriptures.

The RP does not necessitate the exclusion of hymns.

DonP · #16 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

LBC Chapter 21

Quote:

Paragraph 1. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all; is just, good and does good to all; and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart and all the soul, and with all the might. But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God, is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imagination and devices of men, nor the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representations, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scriptures.

The RP does not necessitate the exclusion of hymns.

That would be the modern Baptist RP and the Modern US RP

Originally it did since it said only that which is prescribed in the word is to be used, but the American PRes voted to amend and allow hymns. I don't remember when I read the debate if it was an RP issue or apart from that just amending.

But a Dutch pastor told me they brought the Organ in only to be used before worship to get the people to stop talking. Then it was used in the offertory, then to support the good singing.

Then someone could afford a bigger louder organ and now you sing along with the organ if you can hear the people over it.

JM · #17 (**permalink**) 04-06-2009, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by natewood3

When did Baptists begin using musical instruments in their churches?

I asked on the predestinarian yahoo group and the reply came back, it was "David Benedict, pastor of the First Baptist Church, Pawtucket, R.I" who introduced instruments. I'm looking to confirm that...

Duncan · #18 (**permalink**) 04-07-2009, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herald

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan

Forgive me Bill I in no way meant to imply those like yourself do not love the psalms. I am afraid however I am according to the rules unable to say anything further.

Feel free to comment. The restriction has been lifted.

Praise the Lord, I shall return later as I am off to work. What I would love to share in more detail later, is the practical benefits of Psalm singing. One quick example is in outreach I am involved in childrens work and can assure you singing psalms with them has a wonderful effect. The children are learning scripture and begin to know about God in ways that are relevant to their lives. There is no need to be concerned about a song's content if the song is scripture itself. Sorry have to go to work, I shall return as I believe this is important.

pepper · #19 (**permalink**) 04-11-2009, 05:36 PM

From my study of the history of First Baptist Church, Greenville SC, it seems to come to mind that they went to musical instruments around 1850. This church had A Rev. Furman as pastor and many of the founders of the Southern Baptist were members there. The first staff of Southern Seminary (which was located in Greenville then) agreed with using instruments and spiritual songs and hymns.