Degrees of Punishment

Baptist-1689er · #1 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 08:22 AM

It is commonly believed that the Bible teaches there will be "degrees of punishment" in Hell for the lost. Things will be much worse for a Hitler, than for your average sinner, one will often hear. Do the Reformed Confessions specifically support this concept. If not, then does anyone have an idea why not?

**Herald** · #2 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 09:08 AM

Hamp,

Yes, the 1689 LBC does not speak to degrees of punishment. Perhaps the framers were content to draw the comparison between the just and the unjust without feeling the need to drill down on a secondary issue. The WCF doesn't address it either. I'll leave speculation as to the reason why to my Presbyterian brethren.

jason d · #3 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 09:50 AM

There are alot of topics the confessions don't cover. Looks like that is just another.

**KMK** · #4 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 09:52 AM

Quote:

LBC 32:2 The end of God's appointing this day, is for the manifestation of the glory of his mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of his justice, in the eternal damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient;4 for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fulness of joy and glory with everlasting rewards, in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked, who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast aside into everlasting torments,5 and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Notice how they contrast 'rewards' with 'torments' and both are in the plural. Perhaps their intention was to teach that the punishment shall fit the crime just as the reward will fit the good work.

Curt · #5 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 10:09 AM

Being in Hell isn't enough punishment?

Baptist-1689er · #6 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 10:20 AM

In Sproul's exposition of the WCF at 33:3 on the phrase "...deter all men from sin..." he invokes the belief of degrees of rewards and punishments. He discusses it at some length, but I think he may just be sermonizing at that point.

austinww · #7 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 10:52 AM

Well, it's biblical, and the confessions all affirm the innerancy of Scripture. I know, I know - cheap answer.

Scott1 · #8 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Westminster Confession of Faith
[emphasis added]

Chapter XXXII
Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead

I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption:[1] but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them:[2] the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies.[3] And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.[4] Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges none.

II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed:[5] and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever.[6]

III. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor: the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honor; and be made conformable to His own glorious body.[7]

Quote:

Chapter XXXIII
Of the Last Judgment

I. God has appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world, in righteousness, by Jesus Christ,[1] to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father.[2] In which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged,[3] but likewise all persons that have lived upon earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.[4]

II. The end of God's appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of His justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fulness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.[5]

III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin; and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity:[6] so will He have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, come quickly, Amen.[7]

The Scripture on these points is both tremendously consoling and sobering in our self-centered, instant gratification generation:

Quote:

Scripture proofs XXXIII 3.

[6] 2PE 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 2CO 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2TH 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, LUK 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. ROM 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

[7] MAT 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. MAR 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. LUK 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they say open unto him immediately. REV 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

There is some indication biblically of rewards and losses for believers (not loss of salvation) as well as greater degrees of punishments of those who do not have Christ's atonement for their sins against God. We have to be careful, because Scripture does not give us much on the specifics of this.

Quote:

Luke 12

46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

May God give us all grace to live in light of what is coming.

Baptist-1689er · #9 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by austinww

Well, it's biblical, and the confessions all affirm the innerancy of Scripture. I know, I know - cheap answer.

Hey, cheap answers work. They will help get your posting number up just the rich ones! (And that is what I'm all about)

I know... bad humor on a thread like this. Sorry

-----Added 9/10/2009 at 11:10:52 EST-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott1

Quote:

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter XXXII
Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead

I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption:[1] but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them:[2] the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies.[3] And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.[4] Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges none.

II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed:[5] and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever.[6]

III. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor: the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honor; and be made conformable to His own glorious body.[7]

Quote:

Chapter XXXIII
Of the Last Judgment

I. God has appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world, in righteousness, by Jesus Christ,[1] to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father.[2] In which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged,[3] but likewise all persons that have lived upon earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.[4]

II. The end of God's appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of His justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fulness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.[5]

III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin; and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity:[6] so will He have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, come quickly, Amen.[7]

There is some indication biblically of rewards and losses for believers (not loss of salvation) as well as greater degrees of punishments of those who do not have Christ's atonement for their sins against God. We have to be careful, because Scripture does not give us much on the specifics of this.

Quote:

Luke 12

46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Scott, is Luke 12: 46-48 a Scripture proof in this section of the Confession?

austinww · #10 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 11:19 AM

For a slightly more expensive answer, a few examples from Scripture come to mind. One, Christ's comments on Capernaum receiving greater punishment than Sodom. Two, Christ's statements about those who lead children astray. There are many more examples in the Bible, but these are what came to mind immediately.

Scott1 · #11 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Scott, is Luke 12: 46-48 a Scripture proof in this section of the Confession?

No, not for these sections.

Andres · #12 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baptist-1689er

In Sproul's exposition of the WCF at 33:3 on the phrase "...deter all men from sin..." he invokes the belief of degrees of rewards and punishments. He discusses it at some length, but I think he may just be sermonizing at that point.

Where might one read/listen to this study? I believe I would certainly benefit from hearing Sproul expound on the WCF. Thanks.

Scott1 · #13 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Westminster Larger Catechism

Q. 89. What shall be done to the wicked at the day of judgment?

A. At the day of judgment, the wicked shall be set on Christ’s left hand,[385] and, upon clear evidence, and full conviction of their own consciences,[386] shall have the fearful but just sentence of condemnation pronounced against them;[387] and thereupon shall be cast out from the favourable presence of God, and the glorious fellowship with Christ, his saints, and all his holy angels, into hell, to be punished with unspeakable torments, both of body and soul, with the devil and his angels forever.[388]

.

Quote:

Scripture proofs

[385] Matthew 25:33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

[386] Romans 2:15-16. Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

[387] Matthew 25:41-43. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

[388] Luke 16:26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

-----Added 9/10/2009 at 11:33:48 EST-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baptist-1689er

In Sproul's exposition of the WCF at 33:3 on the phrase "...deter all men from sin..." he invokes the belief of degrees of rewards and punishments. He discusses it at some length, but I think he may just be sermonizing at that point.

Where might one read/listen to this study? I believe I would certainly benefit from hearing Sproul expound on the WCF. Thanks.

This is an excellent resource for understanding the Westminster Confession:

Truths We Confess (3 volumes) Dr. RC Sproul:

http://www.wtsbooks.com/product-exec...ith_Hardcover_

Baptist-1689er · #14 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baptist-1689er

In Sproul's exposition of the WCF at 33:3 on the phrase "...deter all men from sin..." he invokes the belief of degrees of rewards and punishments. He discusses it at some length, but I think he may just be sermonizing at that point.

Where might one read/listen to this study? I believe I would certainly benefit from hearing Sproul expound on the WCF. Thanks.

I was referring to the 3 volume set "Truths We Confess" (ISBN 978-1-59638-057-8).

***Contra_Mundum*** · #15 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 12:58 PM

Mat 11:24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

I suppose the Confessions don't address the matter because the real issue isn't the difference between one man's punishment or another's, but whether he would be able to bear the least degree of justice from God or not. At root the Confessions address the most central matters of the gospel, and the fate of the wicked is (in the sense of lostness) total, and irremediable.

Another reason could be that too much dwelling on this topic could fuel the sorts of speculations that in times past led to the doctrine of purgatory. After all, if there are degrees of punishment, then in someone's mind, perhaps there could be a limit to some of that punishment.

The Bible really doesn't tell us much about different degrees, in heaven or in hell. (Degrees of bliss being another argument in favor of degrees in hell). It only warns and encourages us.

Baptist-1689er · #16 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum

Mat 11:24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

I suppose the Confessions don't address the matter because the real issue isn't the difference between one man's punishment or another's, but whether he would be able to bear the least degree of justice from God or not. At root the Confessions address the most central matters of the gospel, and the fate of the wicked is (in the sense of lostness) total, and irremediable.

Another reason could be that too much dwelling on this topic could fuel the sorts of speculations that in times past led to the doctrine of purgatory. After all, if there are degrees of punishment, then in someone's mind, perhaps there could be a limit to some of that punishment.

The Bible really doesn't tell us much about different degrees, in heaven or in hell. (Degrees of bliss being another argument in favor of degrees in hell). It only warns and encourages us.

Thank you. I also had wondered if concern over the issue of purgatory could be at play somehow.

**armourbearer** · #17 (**permalink**) 09-10-2009, 07:27 PM

I think the subject is one of speculation in so far as we could not possibly know what is entailed in degrees of punishment and glory. On that account it is wise and moderate to not include it in a Confession. However, the Confession certainly lays all the principles which are involved in the speculation. WCF 33:1, following holy Scripture, says that all men will "receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or bad." WCF 16:6, speaks of Christ rewarding the good works of believers, while 16:7 refers to the neglect of good works as "more sinful."

Here is an illustration. Two men are in prison serving life for murder: one has a family which he loves dearly and the other is single. Prison for the family man entails more loss. So men who loved more of this world will suffer more loss.

The same applies conversely to glory. Those who have enlarged their hearts in the enjoyment of God in this life will have a bigger cup from which to draw from the rivers of God's pleasures in eternity. The sea itself is boundless; the cup in each instance will be full; but the capacity of the cup will differ from one to the other.

Baptist-1689er · #18 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

I think the subject is one of speculation in so far as we could not possibly know what is entailed in degrees of punishment and glory. On that account it is wise and moderate to not include it in a Confession. However, the Confession certainly lays all the principles which are involved in the speculation. WCF 33:1, following holy Scripture, says that all men will "receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or bad." WCF 16:6, speaks of Christ rewarding the good works of believers, while 16:7 refers to the neglect of good works as "more sinful."

Here is an illustration. Two men are in prison serving life for murder: one has a family which he loves dearly and the other is single. Prison for the family man entails more loss. So men who loved more of this world will suffer more loss.

The same applies conversely to glory. Those who have enlarged their hearts in the enjoyment of God in this life will have a bigger cup from which to draw from the rivers of God's pleasures in eternity. The sea itself is boundless; the cup in each instance will be full; but the capacity of the cup will differ from one to the other.

Thanks Rev. Winzer. Your imput on this is helpful.

OPC'n · #19 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 12:08 PM

I truly believe that those who heard the Gospel and rejected it and were "good" ppl will receive greater judgement than those who inflict horrible crimes against mankind and had never heard the Gospel. It is greater crime to reject God after being infomed of the Gospel than to sin against man and not know the Gospel. Both send ppl to hell, but I believe one gets more wrath than the other.

Baptist-1689er · #20 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPC'n

I truly believe that those who heard the Gospel and rejected it and were "good" ppl will receive greater judgement than those who inflict horrible crimes against mankind and had never heard the Gospel. It is greater crime to reject God after being infomed of the Gospel than to sin against man and not know the Gospel. Both send ppl to hell, but I believe one gets more wrath than the other.

Hello Sarah. I agree with you!