Geoff, I wasn't criticizing you. A seminary/ministerial academy are the same thing in my book. Some of my seminary trained brethren may disagree and that's fine.

Rock on, brother.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

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Adam, I'm glad you saw the humor in my statement. I have nothing against seminaries. I do have a problem with those that would look down their noses at a school like Reformed Baptist Seminary and discount it. That's what the "snob appeal" comment was based on.

Geoff,

Are you in residence at MCTS? If so, will I see you in Elementary Hebrew I this fall?

Bob G.

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Bob Gonzales Jr., Dean
Reformed Baptist Seminary
Easley, South Carolina

"Persons need not and ought not to set any bounds to their spiritual and gracious appetites." Jonathan Edwards

My overall impression of your article is that it falsely contrasted exegetical theology over against historical and systematic theology. E.g., you write, "In principle no Reformed pastor or theologian would elevate his tradition to the same level as Scripture. But in practice I believe there can be a very subtle tendency in that direction." Reformed tradition by definition seeks to be Scriptural. And systematic theology is by definition a post-canonical formulation which works within the categories of historical thought. Calvin understood this, and didn't simply quote the fathers occasionally, but grounded theological statement in the guiding truth which the Spirit of God had manifested through the ages. He, and the reformed tradition with him, self-consciously stood in the doctrinal and practical attainments of the true church of the centuries.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

Truth does not change over time. Ten thousand years in heaven will not require us to re-evaluate our theology, so there is no reason why truth should be held as suspect simply because it has been believed for thousands of years on earth.

I wish I was. I am in Georgia. I am a member at Berean Baptist Church.

RB

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Geoff/Reformed Baptist
Acworth, GA
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


"Show me your war face."

You might want to reword that, Matthew. There are guests reading this Board too, and they might get the impression that you're saying that the Bible and tradition form our doctrinal basis.

__________________
JohnV :detective:

John Vandervliet
Ontario, Canada
member of: Canadian Reformed Church
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

Thanks John. For clarification, the Bible is the supreme standard of truth, the norming norm, while the theological tradition is the subordinate standard, the normed norm. The Bible constitutes the doctrine true, and the tradition delivers the doctrine as truth.

Welcome Dr. Gonzales.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

I don't know that Dr. Gonzales was saying anything different than that or accusing anyone of believing tradition was equal to the scripture. It seems that he was saying people were behaving as if tradition were equal by appealing to the authority of the confessions as opposed to the scripture which the confessions refer to. Thats my opinion.

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[B]Manley Beasley[/B]
Southern Baptist Convention
Fayetteville, Arkansas

[B]Wir sein pettler. Hoc est verum (We are beggars. This is true.).--Luther's dying words[/B]

Welcome to the puritanboard,and thank you for clarifying some aspects of the articles. I think it is hard for someone to question those men who have been trusted guides in so many areas of theology.As if to question a couple of their teachings is to reject wholesale everything they taught.
Sometimes I think of many of the godly teachers who have much truth,yet differ on areas of teaching that God has designed it to happen this way to keep us all humble and constantly seeking His face for additional light in the word.
When anyone gets too proud , to that degree they lose their spiritual sight.
I have enjoyed some of your posts on the other forums,and look forward to your imput here on the board.

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Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

Thanks for the many greetings and input regarding my posts "On the Danger of Reformed Traditionalism." Much of your input has sharpened my thinking and prompted me to be more careful in my statements. Nevertheless, I still think the general point I was attempting to make is valid. Hopefully, those of you who were concerned about the implications of Part I read Part II. If you read Part II, you'll find some specific examples of what I perceive to be deficiencies in my own 1689 Confession. It doesn't appear that the 1689, Savoy, or WCF adequately articulate and underscore the church's and individual Christian's obligation vis-a-vis evangelistic and missionary outreach. I haven't done a careful study of the Three Forms of Unity to venture an assessment on those continental symbols. I'm curious to get your input. Do you believe the Puritan confessions give sufficient space and attention to what is arguably one of the church's and Christian's central roles in a lost world? Would you agree with the Presbyterian theologian John Frame when he writes, "A church that is not preoccupied with reaching the unsaved is not merely a weak church; it is not properly a church at all"?

I'm sorry I haven't figured out how to use the quote feature yet. So I'm copying and pasting. Matthew's "overall impression of [my] article is that it falsely contrasted exegetical theology over against historical and systematic theology. E.g., you write, 'In principle no Reformed pastor or theologian would elevate his tradition to the same level as Scripture. But in practice I believe there can be a very subtle tendency in that direction.' Reformed tradition by definition seeks to be Scriptural."

First, I think most Christian traditions claim to be Scriptural. For example, "Bible churches" by definition seek to be biblical. In the end, we have to measure the claims of any tradition by the careful exegesis of God's word.

Second, when I assert that "in practice I believe than can be a very subtle tendency in that direction," I'm not making a charge against Calvin or the Puritans. I'm referring to subtle tendencies among some of their heirs in modern times. I offer two examples in my post.

Third, I'm not denying the fact that the Holy Spirit has taught the church many valuable insights into God's word which have been formulated and embraced as ecclesiastical tradition. Many of these traditions are good summaries of the biblical teaching, as Calvin and our Puritan forefathers recognized. Nevertheless, Calvin and the Puritans only embraced those traditions that they were convinced were consistent with the exegetical data of Scripture. Consequently, when they cite the fathers along with Scripture prooftexts, they intend the former only as subordinate grounds for a given doctrine and as secondary witnesses to the truth. As Matthew later acknowledged, the Scripture alone is the norma normans, the confessions the norma normata. Accordingly, when Herman Hoeksema claims that "sound dogmatics must be faithful to the Reformed creeds and to the dogma of the church" without any qualification, he has, in my mind, blurred an important distinction and betrayed a dangerous assumption, viz, that the Reformed creeds and dogma of the (Reformed) church always summarize accurately and proportionately all the teaching of Scripture. I attempt to show, in my second post, that such is not the case with the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. Those of you who hold to the WCF, Savoy, or Three Forms of Unity may feel otherwise about your symbols. But my view of my confession is analogous to my view of the preached sermon--inasmuch as it conforms to the word of God, it carry's God's authority. Of course, the sermon is usually the product of one pastor (along with the help he gets from commentators) whereas a confession is usually the product of many pastors and scholars and therefore is probably more reliable and accurate than a sermon. And it just so happens that I believe the 1689 is highly reliable! (see my "On the Validity & Value of Confessions of Faith," Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV)

But the bottom line remains the same: what says the Lord? The primacy of Scripture was the concern of Luther, Calvin, and the Puritans. As their heirs, it's important that we share and maintain and defend that concern today. If I might quote Professor John Murray again, "When any generation is content to rely upon its theological heritage and refuses to explore for itself the riches of divine revelation, then declension is already under way and heterodoxy will be the lot of the succeeding generation."

By the way, how do I post a "thank you" below a given post?

Just click the "thanks" in the bottom right-hand corner of the screen.

__________________
J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

This could be an entirely new thread and worth the time to consider. Anyone interested?

I must be blind, but I can't seem to locate a button that says "thanks." I see one that says, "Reply with quote"; another than says, "Multi-quote this message"; and another that says, "Quick reply to this message." Am I missing something?

It's possible that you have to post a number of times before you are allowed to use the "thanks" button.

Yes; I think it is 15; maybe 25. I never remember which.

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Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
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The Regulative Principle: The Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference” (Samuel Miller).

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Thanks, Joy, for your help. I enjoyed looking over your blog. My wife, oldest son, and daughter are musicians. My daughter plays the violin. I'll have to steer her to your blog.

Thanks, Chris. I shouldn't be too far away.

Thanks, glad you enjoyed my blog. My daughters are both musicians, too. My oldest plays double bass and cello.

Do you know the Mulfingers? They're a family quite proficient in the stringed instruments. Mrs. Mulfinger teachers my daughter, and her daughters have produced several CDs of beautiful music.

Bob, I have known the Mulfingers for years. George Mulfinger (now with the Lord) taught me cello years ago, as did his daughter Mrs. Sharon Gerber (more recently). I do known Mrs. Mulfinger as well, though I haven't seen in her a few years.

Someone might think Frame's overstated the point by using the phrase "preoccupied with." Perhaps "concerned with" might be a better phrase. In any case, I think this would be a good discussion. Should an acknowledgment of and commitment to the Great Commission be a defining mark of a genuine Christian church? And if so, shouldn't we articulate that point in our statement of faith?

Bob,

Soon you will see (if you don't yet) a blue button that says "Quote" with an open quote in a black circle before the word "Quote".

That will then put an open quote identifying the person you're quoting, their quotation, and the end quote. For instance, when I quoted you, it started with a left bracket, and then "QUOTE=Dr. Bob Gonzales;465717", and then a right bracket. The actual wording quoted is followed by a left bracket, then /QUOTE, followed by a right bracket.

If you ever want to quote something that you pull out of a book, or from the bible, etc. you would just put the left bracket, the "quote", and then the right bracket. At the end of whatever you've quoted, you do the same thing with the brackets, and put "/quote". Mind you, you don't need the quotation marks that I added for illustration purposes.

If you're not confused, I envy you

Cheers,

__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

Bob,
It should be a distinct thread and feel free to start one. I don't think it was unimportant to the Westminster Assembly. There may indeed be significant differences between how the majority today view how the gospel is to be spread and the Reformed churches during the confession writing era. And didn't it really take English colonization and empire expansion to enable later foreign missionary efforts? But be that as it may, that the spread of the gospel was important and to be prayed for is noted in Westminster Larger Catechism Q&A 191.

[191] Qu: What do wee pray for, in the second Petition?
Ans: In the second Petition (which is, thy Kingdome come,) acknowledging ourselves & all mankind to bee by nature under the dominion of sin & Sathan; wee pray, that the Kingdom of sin & Sathan, may bee destroyed, the Gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jewes called, the fullnes of the Gentiles brought in, the Church furnished with all Gospel officers & ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced & maintained by the Civil magistrate; that the Ordinances of Christ may bee purely dispensed, & made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, & the confirming[,] comforting, & building up of those that are already converted; that Christ would rule in our hearts here, & hasten the time of his second comeing, & our reigneing with him forever; and that he would bee pleased so to exercise the Kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends.

Text from my transcription of one of the two surviving Assembly Manuscripts presented to Parliament, this from the one described as in "hand A". For this question there are only cosmetic or small punctuation differences with that in hand 'B'.

John Frame has begun to make something of a name for himself by coming up with provocative statements based upon false premises/dichotomies. He says a lot more ridiculous stuff in his latest Doctrine of the Christian Life than he ever did in his Doctrine of the Knowledge of God, for example. I have become tired of his little tirades against Reformed theology, and honestly think that the PCA would be a lot better off without his frivolous method of doing theology.

Before you can even begin to take Frame's question with any level of seriousness you'd have to ask if preaching the Gospel in a community every Lord's Day qualifies as "reaching the unsaved". If he were to say "yes", then it would have to be said that Frame is once again being provocative for no good reason, since the Reformed already define the key mark of a true church as the right preaching of the Gospel/Scriptures. If, however, he were to make a predictable jab at that as being a good example of that being "Reformed Traditionalism", and that "no", it was not sufficient enough for reaching the lost, and that just preaching alone would not be enough to qualify a church as a true church, apart from other methods of evangelism, then Frame would be in the unenviable position of having to explain himself on a number of points to his fellow presbyters, and would do what he most often does when being asked to clarify on issues like this - equivocate, qualify, take cheap shots at modern Reformed theologians in his footnotes, make chiding comments about traditional Reformed theologians in a "playful manner", and then never finally settle upon any one answer while yet strongly insinuating that the "traditional Reformed answer" could not possibly be correct.

Of course, as Bob noted, that could be the subject of an entirely new thread.

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Adam J. Myer
Slated for the Jan. 10th Chaplains Basic Officer Leadership Course
Estacada Christian Church
Sandy, Oregon

Soli Deo Gloria

Thanks, Chris. I'd be interested to know more about differences in perspective regarding "how the gospel is spread" between those of the Confessional area and churches today. You're probably right about English colonization being a factor. I'm sorry to be a burden but how does one start a new thread?

A key focus would be on the ministerial role in spreading the gospel; that is a big one I would think but leave that for the new thread and others to opine. Go here: Evangelism, Missions and the Persecuted Church - The PuritanBoard and you will see a button at the top above the listings of the threads, which says "New Thread". Click it and go from there. First time is a learning experience but it is fairly intuitive.

I would favor another thread on Frame too.

I've started the thread under the title, "Do the Reformed Confessions Affirm the Duty of Evangelistic and Missionary Outreach?"
Do the Reformed Confessions Affirm the Duty of Evangelistic and Missionary Outreach?

I added the link to it. I also went in and set your preferences to show the advanced editing box for posting. You should see the various formatting and also link adding buttons now.

Hey Bob,

Welcome to the PB! It has been quite some time since I made your acquaintance back at BJU but happy to see you now traveling in the Reformed Faith. I became a Calvinist at BJU myself and graduated in 1992 not knowing what to do with it however eventually became a Reformed Presbyterian. In any event it is great to see folks like yourself and Dr Lucas teaching the Truth of God's Word at the Seminary Level after earning your Phd's from the Fortress of Faith. Keep turning them out BJU!

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Wayne Whitmer
Member, Rio Rancho OPC
Albuquerque, NM

[quote=Dr. Bob Gonzales;465742][quote=Archlute;465757]Adam, these are some pretty serious charges against John Frame that seem to indict not just his teaching but his character. Of course, I'm in no position to accept or reject your assessment because I do not know Professor Frame personally nor am I aware of any particular offenses he may have committed within the context of his presbytery. I have read a number of Frame's books and have emailed him on several occasions about certain issues. Though I haven't always agreed with all of his viewpoints, I have still found a substantial amount of common ground. I've also appreciated what I perceived to be an irenic spirit in his writings. But you may know some things I don't know. But I'm not sure this is the best venue to address one's perceived faults regarding another brother's character.

Hello, brother. Good to hear from you. I too began to move in a Calvinistic than Reformed direction while at BJU, about the same time you graduated. Drs. Terry Rude and Michael Barrett influenced me in that direction. I also began to borrow cassette tapes from Mt. Olive Tape library. Lloyd Jones, Van Til, and Albert Martin became a regular part of my diet. In 1994, I moved to Michigan to attend the Reformed Baptist Church of Grand Rapids where I was eventually ordained. Later I pastored for 3 1/2 years in Bossier City, Louisiana. Then, in 2002, I moved back to Greenville and joined the eldership fo Covenant Reformed Baptist Church. I also finished a PhD at BJU and became the academic dean and professor of Reformed Baptist Seminary. Becky and I have 5 children. God bless, and I hope our paths will cross in the future.

I believe Pastor John Weaver is also a product of BJU. We use a great deal of BJU materials to homeschool our children.

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Ken,

Do you know when John Weaver would have graduated? I'm not sure if I know him. But it's a small world.