In the current baptism thread I made the statement:

"Baptists aren't always as confessional as they state."

Sadly, this is true, even among Reformed Baptists. Independency has many positive aspects. Unfortunately, adherence to our confession is not always one of them. The 1689 London Baptist Confession is a remarkable document. Like the WCF, it's not scripture. Both are man made documents that are faithful commentaries on the major doctrinal positions held by Baptists and Presbyterians. It pains my heart that so many Calvinistic or self proclaimed Reformed Baptists are ignorant of their own confession. There are various reasons as to why this is. Many Baptists on this board were not raised as Calvinists or Reformed Baptists. That is my story. I came to Baptist circles from Roman Catholicism and then to Calvinism nearly twenty years later. Many Bapists still have the remaining vestiges of dispensationalism and Arminian theology. They are hard habits to break. I speak from experience.

I don't claim to be an expert on the 1689 LBC. It is an object of my study and I have found it to be beneficial to my faith. I would urge my Baptist brethren to know the confession they claim to subscribe to. I am not singling any particular Baptist out on this board. This is more of a generalized statement than a specific indictment. It also doesn't stem from a jealousy of the Presbyterian stand on the WCF. I would expect many who have been raised Presbyterian to know the cathecism and the WCF like the back of their hand. Perhaps our Baptist preachers and elders need to know the LBC better. It needs to be part of the lexicon within our churches. I'd also like to see some more posts from Baptists on the LBC. Make it part of our discussion.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

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Good point Bill. We spent the better part of last year going through the 1689 in our evening service on the Lord's day.

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1689 Baptist Confession

Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley, Wilderness Road Baptist Assembly.
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann.
www.wildernessroadbaptist.org

Then you would be sorely disappointed.

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~Wayne Wylie~
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Ruling Elder - Inactive
http://www.mcopc.org
Bedford, TX

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

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Sadly, this is true.

I taught 7th-8th grade kids at a fairly large PCA Church a few years ago and, not only did only one of the kids have familiarity with the WSC (an Elder's son), but the other adult helping me really didn't know the WSC at all.

Any time I've been asked to teach children in Presbyterian Churches, I always ditch the GCP curriculum and teach the Catechism.

Sorry to hijack your thread Bill. Carry on you singing Italian Bohemian.

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Rich
Drivng across USA
OPC

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Bill,

Nice post. The same exhortations can be directed at many of us presbyterians as well! The reformed faith is about far more than a few isolated distinctives--it is the system of truth revealed in the Scriptures. We would all do well to have much more familiarity with the whole system! I just came across this statement in Manton today that goes along with this idea.

5. Order is a help to memory. Heads of doctrine are as cells wherein to bestow all things that are heard from the word. He that is well instructed in the principles of religion will most easily and firmly remember divine truths. Methodus est catena memoriae, to link truths one to another, that we may consider them in their proportion.

Sounds like a good reason to catechize!

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Rev. Adam King
Minister without a call (WPCUS)
Stated Supply: Reformed Presbyterian Church
Sterling, KS

I was raised in a Presbyterian church, yet only knew one question in the Shorter Catechism by the time I was 18...at which point I actually began to take an interest in Reformed teaching.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

OK Presbyterians. Enough true Confessions that we've got skeletons in our own closet too.

Let's let the Baptists walk the aisle too.

Without meaning to add to the list of Presbyterian confessions (not using the word confessions in the sense of theological statements), I remembering reading in JI Packer's Among God's Giants (aka A Quest For Godliness) that although the Shorter Catechism was originally designed for children and the mentally weak, nowadays, knowing the doctrine in it is enough to be considered a great theologian. Says a lot doesn't it?

At our church only the Pastor (me) officially subscribe to the LBC but I often place relevant exerpts in the sermon notes which are in the bulletin.

I agree with Bill that it is a wonderful document and I doubt I will ever mine all of the treasures therein. I do not understand its disdain among contemporary Baptists.

Perhaps it is just history reliving itself:

I must say that the LBC is a cause I am proud to champion. Forget Purpose Driven, spiritual gifts tests, Seeker Sensitive worship etc. If we are going to impact our society with any man-made program, let it be the LBC!

BTW, Bill, nice avatar!

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My Presbyterian brothers: thank you for your refreshing honesty. I was trying to be complimentary towards you. The WCF is a wonderful document and has done much good for the sake of Christ's church, as has the LBC.

Baptists: can you please come out of the woodwork? I mean it, you guys are like a bunch of prairie dogs, ducking your head quick when you hear incoming fire.

From a Presbyterian: Sam Waldron's exposition of the 1689 LBCF is very much worth reading.

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

How's this for bravery? I'd never heard of the LBC until I came to this site. I had to read it before I joined just to make sure I agreed I knew of the WCF from my Presby friends. Since then, I've become much more interested in creeds, confessions, catechisms, etc. I'd like to teach them to my children someday (when I have them).

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Kim
Baptist
Cornerstone Baptist Church, Greenville, SC

Teach me Your way, O LORD;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psalm 86:11

I "confess" (there you are Rich) that as a lifelong Baptist, my first reading of the 1689 came in connection with my pilgrimage from 4-pt to 5-pt Calvinism and separation from a mainline denomination just a few years ago. Being "well read" in theology and biblical studies does not always translate into knowing ANYthing about Baptist history. The pernicious legacy of independency caused many of us to think of ourselves as "evangelicals who happen to attend a Baptist church," even when we were the pastors of them teaching membership classes!!! In my experience, SBC folks really cherish that Baptist moniker. However, conservatives in the ABC like me were often so ashamed of the association that we ran as fast as we could to common evangelical convictions and, other than baptism, pretty much ignored "Baptist" identity. "Don't call ME a Baptist, I'm an evangelical."

With Bill, it is my present conviction that without confessional integrity we will be prone to stray to the right or the left.

This morning, one of my management employees (a Baptist minister's wife with a MBA) got into a conversation with me about evangelical Christian colleges. My contention was that without a confessional boundary, they will either tend towards the polarity of Joel Osteen and subjective experientialism run amuck or they will drift into heresy, spon fed by the "evangelical" profs with their newly minted secular terminal degrees. Here in So. Cal, for example, I know of one large Christian college that has pretty much embraced the egalitarian line, destructive critical assumptions, and tolerance for a number of post-modern heresies.

No, Marty and Scott, I'm not anti-intellectual. We need the highest level of academic prep for our seminary profs. However, recently we have witnessed again how difficult it is for even our confessional brethren to stick to the Bible and how easily they go "off the reservation." Since most of the evangelical liberal arts colleges don't even have a confessional boundary, the potential for straying is markedly increased.

It is always possible that running away from the fires of the mainline so recently, I still smell the smoke on my clothes everywhere and wrongly assume that a confessional solution will "fix" the problem. However, in my opinion (after more than a half century of church involvement), Baptists without a confessional subscription will be rank liberals in a short period of time.

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Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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Sorry Bill, I was busy reading the LBC and I didn't realize you were asking for input.

I carry it around in my briefcase, right next to my Greek NT and my ASV Bible. (When I'm feeling ambitious, I lug around my Greek/Hebrew leather bound Biblia Sacra too ). I also carry a WCF and the shorter catechism--they fit nicely in deposition folders. Makes for good reading during times I have to wait.

My wife and I read it thoroughly several years ago before we sought membership in our church. Unlike what I understand is Presbyterian practice, members subscribe as well as the elders. We were happy to.

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R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

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Vic, you're certainly no prairie dog!

No, but I have been a gofer.

Presbyterians aren't always that confessional either.

I've found that often new members here from Baptist or other backgrounds who haven't been exposed to many (if any) Presbyterian churches simply assume that the views represented here on the PB, EP included, are representative of what you'll find in the average PCA church.

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Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA

"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt

I'll just be the first to say that I'm pretty thankful I don't know the cathecism like the back of my hand, because, to be honest, it sounds painful.


Sorry, couldn't resist.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
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