The Confession of FaithDiscuss Westminster Standards, 1689 Confession and 3 Forms of Unity Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful (Heb. 10:23)
1689. Because if it was good enough for the Apostle Paul, its good enough for me!
JH
Yeah, and it's the most modern too....you know, 1689 as opposed to 1646.
__________________ Ivan Schoen, Pastor Maranatha Baptist Church
Poplar Grove, Illinois USA http://maranatha-sbc.org/ "When a denomination begins to consider doctrine divisive, theology troublesome, and convictions inconvenient, consider that denomination on its way to a well-deserved death." Dr. Albert Mohler, President of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
I asked what the difference was years ago when I attended a RB church. I was told that the older version favors Covenant Theology more than the 1689. I have to admit though, that I never bothered to look into it. I'm not sure if what I was told is accurate or not.
__________________ Jim Polk
Former/resigned Ruling Elder, Pilgrim Church, PCA
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Jud 1:3 . . .contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
God does whatever is right . . . right is whatever God does.
I asked what the difference was years ago when I attended a RB church. I was told that the older version favors Covenant Theology more than the 1689. I have to admit though, that I never bothered to look into it. I'm not sure if what I was told is accurate or not.
Well, I'm with James here. I've only looked at the 1689 versions, so all I'm good for is humor.
Perhaps this will be of help - This is Dr Peter Masters' intro to his reprint of the 1689:
Quote:
The first confession of faith to be issued by Particular Baptists appeared in 1644, before the appearance of the Westminster Confession. It emphasised the immersion of properly-dressed people and distinguished Particular Baptists from General Baptists by including articles on election, particular redemption, the fallen state of man's will, and the perseverance of the saints. Known as the London Confession it was revised in 1651 (with statements designed to counter the Quaker 'inner light' method of interpreting scripture, a teaching which has returned again in the 'higher-life' movement).
In 1643 the Long Parliament (having abolished the heirachy of the Church of England) called the Westminster Assembly of Divines to draw up the government, worship and doctrines of the church. That assembly of outstanding Puritans began to work on their Confession of Faith at the beginning of 1645, sixty to eighty divines attending the sessions.
The Confession took one year to complete, but it was referred back to the compliers by Parliament so that marginal notes could be added 'to prove every point with scripture.' This was completed in April 1647.
The Congregationalists (At the Savoy Conference, 1658) took the Westminster Confession as their basis of faith after making modifications.
Then, in 1677, the Particular Baptists also took the Westminster COnfession as the basis of a new confession of their own. They made changes to the articles covering the church, the ordinances and the civil magistrate (sometimes following the Savoy Declaration), also slightly altering and extending some other passages. This was published (during a period of fierce persecution) as, The Second London Confession ... put forth by ther Elders and Brethren of many congregations of Christians (baptised upon profession of their faith) in London and the country.
Immediately the period of persecution of Baptists ended this Confession was adopted and confirmed by the messengers of Particular Baptist churches who assembled in London in 1689. It became the abiding standard of Particular Baptists.
In the USA the famous Philadelphia Confession was derived from the 1689 Confession ... in 1742, when two articles were added and minor alterations made.
Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley, Wilderness Road Baptist Assembly.
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann. www.wildernessroadbaptist.org
After looking into the issue of baptism and reassessing my paedobaptist views I have been forced to change my position. From what I have read thus far of these London Confessions I would subscribe to the 1646 although I need to look again at the mode of baptism.
Mr. Sherratt, this is indeed interesting. So far as I know, you're the first on the PB to change from Peado to Credo.
Were you fairly steeped in Covenant Theology leading to your paedobaptist beliefs, or was it more on the basis of tradition?
It would great if you could start a new thread and tell us about the reasoning for your decisions. What I'm saying is it may be helpful for some who're struggling with the whole credo vs paedo issue.
Just some thoughts...grace and peace to you this Lord's Day.
When heresy rises in an evangelical body, it is never frank and open. It always begins by skulking, and assuming a disguise. Its advocates, when together, boast of great improvements, and congratulate one another on having gone greatly beyond the ‘old dead orthodoxy,’ and on having left behind many of its antiquated errors: but when taxed with deviations from the received faith, they complain of the unreasonableness of their accusers, as they ‘differ from it only in words.’ This has been the standing course of errorists ever since the apostolic age. Samuel Miller, Introductory essay, The Articles of the Synod of Dort (1841).
Mr. Sherratt, this is indeed interesting. So far as I know, you're the first on the PB to change from Peado to Credo.
Were you fairly steeped in Covenant Theology leading to your paedobaptist beliefs, or was it more on the basis of tradition?
It would great if you could start a new thread and tell us about the reasoning for your decisions. What I'm saying is it may be helpful for some who're struggling with the whole credo vs paedo issue.
Just some thoughts...grace and peace to you this Lord's Day.
Is it known who the ministers and seven churches in London were that drew up the 1644/1646?
Most were involved (it is believed) in the 1689 as well, but due to persecution they were anonymous. There is some fairly solid speculation on the topic, however.
Most were involved (it is believed) in the 1689 as well, but due to persecution they were anonymous. There is some fairly solid speculation on the topic, however.
The churches subscribing to this Confession were Devonshire Square; Broad Street, Wapping; Great St. Helen's; Crutched Friars; Bishopsgate Street; Coleman Street; and Glazier's Hall....The Confession is signed, among others, by John Spilsbury, Samuel Richardson, William Kiffin, Thomas Patient, and Hanserd Knollys. -- Bye-paths in Baptist History: A Collection of Interesting, Instructive, and Curious Information (1871), p. 111, by Joseph Jackson Goadby.
The 1689 London Baptist Confession was signed by Hanserd Knollys and William Kiffin, among others. It was originally published in 1677 anonymously.
This article on the differences between and origins of the 1644 and 1689 Baptist Confessions is useful to read.
__________________
Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project
"On land, at sea, at home, abroad, / I smoke my pipe and worship God." -- J.S. Bach
Last edited by VirginiaHuguenot; 02-26-2007 at 09:03 PM.
Since I have been a Baptist I have been 1689 mostly because I did not know there were others. Blueridge Reformer seems to be faily knowledgable and has been teaching me about the differences. Perhaps he will post some of the resources he has shared with me. (I would do it myself but I do not know how)
Blueridge Reformer has informed me that I am perhaps 'Continental Reformed' in my Sabbath/4th commandment views. I am still 'scrupling' as a good Presby would say. (Is that the proper 'scrupling' emoticon?)
I've never read the 1646 confession. Thus, the only reason I can give you is that I am ignorant!
__________________ Mark Maney
Kwanglim Korean Methodist Church - 1689'er Baptist Pastor (read profile for more info)
Master of Theological Studies emphasis Biblical Studies
Trinity Western University, ACTS Seminaries
Surrey, BC. (Vancouver), Canada
As a former Reformed Baptist...I used to hold the 1689.
The key differences between the 1689 and the 1646 is that the 1689 is sabbatarian whereas the 1646 is silent on that issue. Also notice the following comparison regarding the administration of the 'ordinances' (we presbyterians don't mind calling them sacraments).
1689
"These holy appointments are to be administered by those only who are qualified and thereunto called, according to the commission of Christ."
1646
"The person designed by Christ to dispense baptism, the Scripture holds forth to be a disciple; it being no where tied to a particular church officer, or person extraordinarily sent the commission enjoining the administration, being given to them as considered disciples, being men able to preach the gospel."
As a former Reformed Baptist...I used to hold the 1689.
The key differences between the 1689 and the 1646 is that the 1689 is sabbatarian whereas the 1646 is silent on that issue. Also notice the following comparison regarding the administration of the 'ordinances' (we presbyterians don't mind calling them sacraments).
1689
"These holy appointments are to be administered by those only who are qualified and thereunto called, according to the commission of Christ."
1646
"The person designed by Christ to dispense baptism, the Scripture holds forth to be a disciple; it being no where tied to a particular church officer, or person extraordinarily sent the commission enjoining the administration, being given to them as considered disciples, being men able to preach the gospel."
The 1689 has to be read in contrast to the confessions it was revising.
WCF
"There be only two sacraments ordained by Christ our Lord in the gospels, that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord: neither of which may be dispensed by any but a minister of the Word, lawfully ordained."
Savoy Declaration
"There be only two sacraments ordained by Christ our Lord in the gospel, that is to say, Baptism and the Lord's Supper; neither of which may be dispensed by any but a minister of the Word lawfully called."
The 1689 deliberately removes the requirement of a "minister of the Word" and ordination, replacing it with "qualified and thereunto called, according to the commission of Christ."
I would think that the commission of Christ referred to is Matthew 28:19-20, and thus all Christians are commissioned to baptize. I don't see any difference between the 1646 and the 1689 on that issue.
XXIX.
That all believers are a holy and107 sanctified people, and that sanctification is a spiritual grace of the108 new Covenant, and effect of the109 love of God, manifested to the soul, whereby the believer is in110 truth and reality separated, both in soul and body, from all sin and dead works, through the111 blood of the everlasting Covenant, whereby he also presseth after a heavenly and Evangelical perfection, in obedience to all the Commands,112 which Christ as head and King in hits new Covenant has prescribed to him.
XXX.
All believers through the knowledge of113 that Justification of life given by the Father, and brought forth by the blood of Christ, have this as their great privilege of that the new114 Covenant, peace with God, and reconciliation, whereby they that were afar off, were brought nigh by115 that blood, and have (as the Scripture speaks) peace116 passing all understanding, yea, joy in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, by117 whom we have received the Atonement.
XXXI.
That all believers in the time of this life, are in a continual warfare, combat, and opposition against sin, self, the world, and the Devil, and liable to all manner of afflictions, tribulations, and persecutions, and so shall continue until Christ comes in his Kingdom, being predestinated and appointed thereunto; and whatsoever the Saints, any of them do posses or enjoy of God in this life, is only by faith.118
XXXII.
That the only strength by which the Saints are enabled to encounter with all opposition, and to overcome all afflictions, temptations, persecutions, and trials, is only by Jesus Christ, who is the Captain of their salvation, being made perfect through sufferings, who hath engaged his strength to assist them in all their afflictions, and to uphold them under all their temptations, and to preserve them by his power to his everlasting Kingdom.119
1689 ON SANCTIFICATION:
Chapter 13: Of Sanctification
1. They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, are also farther sanctified, really and personally, through the same virtue, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
( Acts 20:32; Romans 6:5, 6; John 17:17; Ephesians 3:16-19; 1 Thessalonians 5:21-23; Romans 6:14; Galatians 5:24; Colossians 1:11; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Hebrews 12:14 )
2. This sanctification is throughout the whole man, yet imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.
( 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Romans 7:18, 23; Galatians 5:17; 1 Peter 2:11 )
3. In which war, although the remaining corruption for a time may much prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; and so the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God, pressing after an heavenly life, in evangelical obedience to all the commands which Christ as Head and King, in His Word hath prescribed them.
( Romans 7:23; Romans 6:14; Ephesians 4:15, 16; 2 Corinthians 3:18; 2 Corinthians 7:1 )
(Is that the proper 'scrupling' emoticon?)
