Hi everybody. I've recently begun reading Robert Dabney's Sacred Rhetoric. It's a pretty good book. It just adds more to my opinion that people don't write books with such depth today. I've seen a few of you mention his name. I've read the wiki article, but I need a theologians perspective on his writings. Any thing will be appreciated.

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Timothy Johnson
First United Presbyterian of Moline
PCUSA (Yea, I know)
Theology/Philosophy Sunday School Teacher
Davenport, IA

One of the greatest American theologians hands down. I have read Sacred Rhetoric several times. He was also an acute political observer. He predicted the Patriot Act. He also lived one of the most heroic lives in American history.
SermonAudio.com - Life of Robert L. Dabney

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I agree that he was a great theologian. This work is highly recommended: The Sensualistic Philosophy of the Nineteenth Century Considered » Naphtali Press » Store

It's like reading a presuppositional critique of naturalism before it was called presuppositionalism.

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PCA, Northern VA
Student, New Geneva Theological Seminary

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I have spent more time in his Systematic Theology than any other Systematic Theology. I love him.

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I am a big fan as well. Sprinkle has some very nice editions of several of his works.

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

I have found Dabney's Systematic Theology a great help in preparing a training course for new elders. I believe his grasp of Reformed Theology to be second to none.

Yours in Christ

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David Porter
Presbyterian Church in Ireland
Minister of Second Dromara Presbyterian Church
Dromara, County Down, Northern Ireland

As a theologian, he rates very high. He was incredibly prescient concerning certain trends.

He was a "man of his time and place," ante- and post-bellum South; and (if we would like a drop or two of charitable judgment ourselves) we should remember that, even while we assuredly want to distance ourselves from any of his racist remarks. I have never come across any of them in his theological material, but he did say and write some things which, in our time, grate upon our sensibilities. But I do not think you will find such in the vast majority of his compendious writings.

I bring up this last point, because someone (even a "person of color") could read and love Dabney, and then have some acquaintance of theirs blindside them with: "But he's an old southern racist! What are you reading him for?" Better to know ahead of time.

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Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
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Thank you all so much!! I know what book I'm gonna read next!! Sensualistic Philosophy. Thanks Semper. And Ivanhoe, thanks for the sermon! I've got some goood listening ahead this weekend. I get soo tired of modern fluff, that to have somebody who might grate on sensibilities would be refreshing. I miss the old etiquette of saying to a debating opponent "Due to my worth opponents lack of knowledge, you can see how he came to his conclusions." You're thoughts on the subject are greatly appreciated. That's one of the reason's I'm here at PB. I've got nobody with deep theology that I can talk to or ask questions to. Thanks.

I don't know about his other works. But, Dabney's Systematic Theology does not contain anything I could find that involved ugly racism. He did, however, as you observed, say things that will grate against modern sensibilities. His use of slavery as an example of the ineffectiveness of fear as a motivator will cause more than a raised eye or two by those of us outside the south. Still, in a VERY thick book, it is amazing that the man who was a "person of his time" did not engage in such political discourse during his writing of his theology.

For example, practically the only time he touches upon the subject in his major work is when he observes:

And, even though he wrote an entire biography on Stonewall Jackson, the man's name does not appear once in his Systematic Theology.

Outside of his systematics, you can find plentiful references to slavery. For example, The Southern Church And The Presbyterian Alliance deals with the "foul slander" and "libels" by the northern Presbyterians against those in the south over the issue of slavery. In his Anti-Biblical Theories Of Rights, Dabney declares: In 1861, Dabney wrote the following: On The State Of The Country

As a loyal southerner, Dabney viewed the abolitionist senetiments in the north through a different lens than notherners did.
Fraternal Correspondence

Dabney saw the problem of northern "agitation" as a threat to one's very means of making a living:
The Sabbath Of The State

If you want some of the best Reformed theology anywhere, get Dabney's Systematic Theology. But, don't expect him to be politically correct or to reflect 21st century attitudes on mid-19th century conflicts. And, stick to his theology, not his defense of the south. That is where you will find the greatest number of racist statements.

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Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
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When i was reading the next artical about Dabney and the comments of Contra Mudum, i was thinking about the next Bible vers :

1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

See:
R.L. Dabney (from racist churches):

Through Vision Forum, Doug Phillips sells books on Robert Lewis Dabney, who was Stonewall Jackson’s chief of staff and chaplain during the Civil War. After the war, Dabney wrote a book called A Defense of Virginia, which even over a hundred years later is considered one of the most racist books ever written. Dabney considered black people to be a “morally inferior race,” a “sordid, alien taint” marked by “lying, theft, drunkenness, laziness, waste.” He considered slavery to be ”the righteous, the best, yea, the only tolerable relation” between blacks and whites. He condemned the “abhorrent amalgamation of [white] children with blacks” and actually argued that it was better for blacks to be enslaved than not since it was better for their minds and their health. Dabney called the attempt to educate all Negroes “mischievous,” “tyrannical,” “useless,” “impracticable,” and “dishonest.”

Here are some choice quotes from Dabney:

It is well known, that, as a general rule, [Negroes] are a graceless, vagabondish set, and contribute very little to the support of the State by which they are protected. They are not citizens, never can become citizens, and wherever found in large numbers they are an expense and a source of trouble…

The black race is an alien one on our soil; and nothing except his amalgamation with ours, or his subordination to ours, can prevent the rise of that instinctive antipathy of race, which, history shows, always arises between opposite races in proximity…

The offspring of an amalgamation must be a hybrid race incapable of the career of civilization and glory as an independent race. And this apparently is the destiny which our conquerors have in view. If indeed they can mix the blood of the heroes of Manassas with this vile stream from the fens of Africa, then they will never again have occasion to tremble before the righteous resistance of Virginia freemen; but will have a race supple and vile enough to fill that position of political subjugation, which they desire to fix on the South.

How does Doug Phillips regard Dabney? He calls Dabney “the greatest southern theologian of the 19th century.” He exclaims: “Hail Dabney, prophet of the South, our great apologist… And so with joy we doff our hats and shout from every mouth: Hail Dabney, wise apologist, defender of the South!”

In Doug’s lecture on Dabney, he says Dabney was “formulative” to his way of thinking. He introduces Dabney as one who would be “in the front lines at Gettysburg, charging toward the Yankees.” Doug calls Dabney “the greatest defender of Southern heritage, Christian faith, and common sense.” He praises Dabney “for being bold enough to say things that others today are afraid to say.” He laments that Dabney is “resented by those Christians who don’t want to hear his prophecies.” He said we may be uncomfortable with Dabney’s conclusions, but we are “left with no other option but to run and hide - we can’t deny it - or simply to embrace the truth…” He calls Dabney “a prophet in the fullest sense,” and after announcing that he might name his next child after Dabney, recites a poem he has written for the occasion entitled, “Hail Dabney, Prophet of the South.”

Doug Phillips also edited a book entitled Robert Louis Dabney: The Prophet Speaks.

Oh, but we’re just getting started.

Link:
R.L. Dabney « Racist Churches

More:
Racist Churches

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* Ralph Wilms (7-10-1974)
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Mayflower, I went to the Racist churches link in your post. I didn't see any footnotes to quote where the stuff came from. But I was more shocked that that website automatically pulled my name and e-mail address and it filled out a form... Yikes!

DMcFadden - I appreciate a heads up. your quote "If you want some of the best Reformed theology anywhere, get Dabney. But, don't expect him to be politically correct or to reflect 21st century attitudes on mid-19th century conflicts" That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for. It allows me to get inside the heads of people in different times in different circumstances. That last quote in his Fraternal Correspondence is eerie. These are things we need to hear and think about. I despise political correctness. Does it show in my posts? Thanks for giving me a foretaste of things to come.

I started reading a bit of his ST a while back, but found it very philosophical and decided just to keep it for reference. Is it worth trying to read it from cover-to-cover?

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

The link, by its very name, is biased. As for the quotes, when we quote someone, we give things like where we found the quote. The website is a joke and lack of scholarship. The quotes, assuming they are legit because the author failed to cite sources, are taken out of context.

Same here. I was not impressed by his treatment of the Lord's Supper.

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Richard
CofE
UK

[/QUOTE]The link, by its very name, is biased. As for the quotes, when we quote someone, we give things like where we found the quote. The website is a joke and lack of scholarship. The quotes, assuming they are legit because the author failed to cite sources, are taken out of context.[/QUOTE]

Jacob, i understand your piont, and iam agree that they should cite the sources, but is it than still a yoke and reading the qoutes of Dabney as a lie ?

And is these quotes are not a lie, how do we view Dabney than ? Are we as reformed believers many times not honouring a theologion because of all the knowledge and wisdom he got from the Word of God, and not being critical of these so-called claims were forexample Dabney is being accused of as a racist ?

I listened to this message last night. Very good. Made me appreciate the man more.

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Carl Trueman says, Reformation21 » Lured out of hiding

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Ralph,

Bruce already "warned" that Dabney had some views that we might disagree with. I don't think we need to try to defend them. I neither agree with his position on slavery nor his view of black men but that does not mean that his entire corpus has no theological value to us.

Luther wrote some wicked things about the Jews and moralists will always value truth by the quality of the person that states it because they see truth as flowing from the intrinsic righteousness from within man.

Remember that Dabney and Luther both looked outside themselves and not within for their righteous standing before God. That does not excuse their sins but it does mean that, by their faith in Christ, those sins are atoned for. The moralist may be upright and faithfully give his 10% to the Church, never smoke, never drink any alchohol, and have all the correct attitudes toward black men and people of every race but if his righteousness is grounded within then he will perish in his sins.

This, of course, is utter foolishness to the world that can't possibly fathom that Mother Teresa may have perished in her sins but a man with multiple wives, who committed adultery, and then had the husband of his lover killed in battle to cover his sin could be called a man after God's own heart.

I think we ought to be brutally honest about the sins of a man named Dabney. I don't consider the fact that he had silly notions of the capacities of black men to be nearly as sinful as his efforts, contra Girardeau, to exclude professed Christians of another race from membership in the Presbyterian Church. Nevertheless, his salvation and your salvation rests on a foreign righteousness. That's something that the world will never accept but that you ought to remember before you think there's nothing to be gained from a man with sinful failings. Those are precisely the men that Christ has redeemed.

Could you elaborate for clarity's sake?

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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

I do hope you're not being so imprudent as to imply I am either whining or apoplogizing. I actually don't need the links to validate what I've read from well documented Presbyterian history about Dabney and his efforts to restrict black membership from the Southern Presbyterian Church. Per my previous post, it is not an immaterial thing that he did so, but being aware of it doesn't make his writings useless.

Would you care to elaborate further after removing the chip from your shoulder?

It may be predictable, but it's also fair game.

Nevermind? If you won't elaborate on something, then don't throw out little quips in the thread.
You've thrown so much presumptionbehind the intentions of those who have posted in this thread, merely acknowledging the HUGE gorilla (i.e. that even godly Reformed men have--GASP!--sin in their hearts) in the room.

Thanks brother for the explanation, i really understand you and iam agree, but still it's for me hard to understand that these men like Dabney hath such a evil and horrible view on the black race and being a full racist.

What i understood from Luther, was that in the beginning he was not at all against the jews, but when the reformation broke out, that he thought that now finally the Gospel could come to the jews, but he was so dissapointed
that he saw that the jews were still rejecting the Gospel, and so he wrote these very evil words against the jews.

I was also shock to read from you, that Girardeau rejected black people from memberschip from the presbyterian church, i did not know that.

From the calvinistic site theologions write so clearer and deep against the errors and heresies like arminianisme, why are there same voices are raised against the evil and horrible teachings from these presbyterians????????????? Is it only because they wrote so great about predestination and the others thingson doctrines of grace, so that the evil teaching of their racisme is a minor issue ?

Yet again, I was not impressed by Dr. Trueman's comments. I still read him in spite of his Socialism. The man needs to learn to be more forebearing; Dabney and Thornwell got things wrong, but they were only sinners like the rest of us. I suspect, however, that the reason why Dr. Trueman is so hard on people with suspect racist views is because racism is about the only sin recognised by secular humanists.

Read my rebuttal to his statements regarding R.J. Rushdoony:

Was R.J. Rushdoony A Racist? Answering Carl Trueman « Reformed Covenanter

The Slander of R.J. Rushdoony « Reformed Covenanter

More on the Slander of R.J. Rushdoony by Colin Tayler « Reformed Covenanter

Yes, the Trueman piece was quite painful to read. He needs to do a little better work than simply dismissing eminent scholars like Eugene Genovese. It is one thing to refute someone, it is quite another to ignore the arguments by waving the hand.

Also, racism, according to some sources, is a marxist term. I am not a racist. I work with 99% black children and love many of them dearly. But do you watch liberal politics? Do you want to silence the southern Christian? Just call him a racist and the ball game is over. Don't even worry about proving it. The fear of being labeled a racist is the most powerful political tool today.

Dear Ivanhoe,

But how do you view Dabney and Girardeau as a racist or not a racist ?
What do you mean with " to silence the southern christian ?

His comment implying that JH Thornwell was not a great mind is simply ridiculous. Moreover, he complains that these men never said anything original. What about Thornwell's view of RC baptism or Dabney's theological defence of slavery? These are two of the best defences of these positions. Moreover, Southern Presbyterians at this time did not want to be theological innovators; they wanted to uphold the old paths of Reformed truth. Is that really so bad?

One wonders is the secular humanists would have called Paul a racist for saying that "the Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons". Criticism of an ethnic/national group is not the same thing as a belief in out-and-out racial supremacy.

PS Who is Carl Trueman talking about when he refers to "Delboy"? - this was a character in a British sitcom called Only Fools and Horses, which was about a group of plucky capitalists who sought to make a fortune selling stuff at markets.

Dear Daniel,

We are discussing about Dabney, so if his quotes are from him, would this not be a full racist, and what about Girardeau who did exclude professed Christians of another race (Black people) from membership in the Presbyterian Church ?

And are these views of Dabney and Girardeau not a criticism of an ethnic/national group, and a belief in out-and-out racial supremacy ?

Here again are some choice quotes from Dabney:

It is well known, that, as a general rule, [Negroes] are a graceless, vagabondish set, and contribute very little to the support of the State by which they are protected. They are not citizens, never can become citizens, and wherever found in large numbers they are an expense and a source of trouble…

The black race is an alien one on our soil; and nothing except his amalgamation with ours, or his subordination to ours, can prevent the rise of that instinctive antipathy of race, which, history shows, always arises between opposite races in proximity…

The offspring of an amalgamation must be a hybrid race incapable of the career of civilization and glory as an independent race. And this apparently is the destiny which our conquerors have in view. If indeed they can mix the blood of the heroes of Manassas with this vile stream from the fens of Africa, then they will never again have occasion to tremble before the righteous resistance of Virginia freemen; but will have a race supple and vile enough to fill that position of political subjugation, which they desire to fix on the South

Brother

Forgive my ignorance, but I once read that Girardeau was the minister of a black congregation? Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning their views that were sinful. I think Dabney was somewhat racist at times, but that does not mean that he has nothing good to say in other unrelated areas of theology.

Concerning Dabney's comment "It is well known, that, as a general rule, [Negroes] are a graceless, vagabondish set, and contribute very little to the support of the State by which they are protected." I would not have that much problem with a man saying something like that if it was accurate; just like if someone said "the Irish are drunkards" - it does not mean that the person is an anti-Irish racist, but the are making a just criticism of a national group. However, some of the other things Dabney says are un-Christian in my opinion, and do him no favours.

Dabney could have made an empirical observation. Dabney also criticised Southern slave-owners for not Reforming slavery according to biblical guidelines. Funny how detractors never mnetion that...Oh right, Genevose pointed that out and we can just dismiss him.

I think you need to reread what Rich wrote. He said Girardeau and Dabney held opposing views.

I don't really have much to add, but I observe that there has been a lot of politically correct language in this thread. "...he did say and write some things which, in our time, grate upon our sensibilities..." "...don't expect him to be politically correct or to reflect 21st century attitudes on mid-19th century conflicts..." Why all this pussyfooting around? Why not just say that his exclusion of blacks from the church was wicked and contrary to the Law of God?

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Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Winston-Salem, NC
scottandjenny.ws

Dabney was a racist. So was Lincoln. So were most people at that time in history.

Can we still profit from reading the writings of Dabney? Did his racism corrupt his other views? These are legitimate concerns.

I think I will simply accept that Dabney was a racist. And I also think I can profit from reading his works on theology.

__________________
R. Anthony Coletti
Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Jonesborough, TN
[i]et venite et arguite me dicit Dominus[/i]

Lincoln was the biggest white supremacist of the 19th century.

Yes.

No.

And I think many people will say, in a reactionary fashion, oh, but he is a racist. Then they will fail to see his chilling political predictions which came true in our century. They will miss out that he thought deeply, and wrote more clearly, to a broken people.

And if we are to pass blame, we need to be fair. Dabney could never have accepted the arguments of the Abolitionists. The abolitionists of that day were Jacobin, Unitarian, proto-Communists bent on destroying, not slavery, but the Southern people.

I found his article on the Sabbath to be very clear in both thought and phraseology, and eminently helpful. However, the times that I have dipped into his systematic theology I have not found him very helpful. Wasn't the systematic theology taken down from notes?

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