Hell in the micro

Herald · #1 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 07:38 PM

"And yet all loneliness, angers, hatreds, envies and itchings that it contains, if rolled into one single experience and put into the scale against the least moment of joy that is felt by the least in Heaven, would have no weight that could be registered at all. Bad cannot succeed even in being bad as truly as good is good. If all Hell's miseries together entered the consciousness of yon wee yellow bird on the bough there, they would be swallowed up without trace, as if one drop of ink had been dropped into that Great Ocean to which your terrestrial Pacific itself is only a molecule."

- C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

sotzo · #2 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 08:55 PM

That is why universalism is so appealing.

Herald · #3 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 09:39 PM

Later in the same chapter Lewis' character continues his dialog with the glorified George MacDonald:

"In your own books, Sir," said I, "you were a Universalist. You talked as if all men would be saved. And St. Paul too."

"Ye can know nothing of the end of all things, or nothing expressible in those terms. It may be, as the Lord said to the Lady Julian, that all will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well. But it's ill talking of such questions."

"Because they are too terrible, Sir?"

"No. Because all answers deceive. If ye put the question for within Time and are asking about possibilities, the answer is certain. The choice of ways is before you. Neither is closed. Any man may choose eternal death. Those who choose it will have it. But if ye are trying to leap on into eternity, if ye are trying to see the final state of all things as it will be (for so ye must speak) when there are no more possibilities left but only the Real, then ye ask what cannot be answered to mortal ears. Time is the very lens through which ye see - small and clear, as men see through the wrong end of a telescope - something that would otherwise be too big for ye to see at all. That thing is Freedom: the gift whereby ye most resemble your Maker and are yourselves parts of eternal reality. But ye can see it only through the lens of Time, in a little clear picture, through the inverted telescope. It is a picture of moments following one another and yourself in each moment making some choice that might have been otherwise. Neither the temporal succession not the phantom of what ye might have chosen and didn't is itself Freedom. They are a lens. The picture is a symbol: but it's truer than any philosophical theorem (or, perhaps, than any mystic's vision) that claims to be behind it. For every attempt to see the shape of eternity except through the lens of Time destroys your knowledge of Freedom. Witness the doctrine of Predestination which shows (truly enough) that eternal reality is not waiting for a future in which to be real; but at the price of removing Freedom which is the deeper truth of the two. And wouldn't Universalism do the same? Ye cannot know eternal reality by a definition. Time itself, and all acts and events that fill Time, are the definition, and it must be lived. The Lord said we are gods. How long could ye bear to look (without Time's lens) on the greatness of your own soul and the eternal reality of her choice?"

Lewis makes the point that both predestination (Calvinism) and Universalism usurp the greater truth of Freedom (free choice). So neither the Calvinist or the Universalist is treated more fairly by Lewis. In this area Lewis displays his lack of theological knowledge. His philosophical knowledge and his "big picture" understanding of the Christian faith is not in question imho.

sotzo · #4 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 09:54 PM

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Lewis makes the point that both predestination (Calvinism) and Universalism usurp the greater truth of Freedom (free choice). So neither the Calvinist or the Universalist is treated more fairly by Lewis. In this area Lewis displays his lack of theological knowledge. His philosophical knowledge and his "big picture" understanding of the Christian faith is not in question imho.

Unpack this a bit...you say he displays his lack of theological knowledge, but his "big picture" understanding of the faith is not in question. In what respects to you see his theological knowledge lacking and his overall understanding intact?

BTW, the is a paralyzing issue for me (the doctrine of hell) and I struggle greatly with not having it consume all my thoughts.

Herald · #5 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 10:04 PM

Lewis displays an orthodox view of the (dare I say the word?) fundamental views of the Christian faith: the virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, second coming, salvation by grace through faith to name just a few. I picked up a copy of "The Great Divorce" this afternoon and finished it about two hours ago. That's why I have Lewis on the brain right now. Interestingly enough, Tabletalk magazine is featuring C.S. Lewis in the January issue. About Lewis. R.C. Sproul writes:

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We have to note that although a literary expert, C.S. Lewis remained a layman theologically speaking. Indeed, he was well-read and studied layman, but he did not benefit from the skills of technical training in theology. Some of his theological musings will indicate a certain lack of technical understanding, for which he may be certainly excused. His book Mere Christianity has been the single most important volume of popular apologetics that the Christian world witnessed in the twentieth century. Again, in his incomparable style, Lewis was able to get to the nitty-gritty of the core essentials of the Christian faith without distorting them into simplistic categories.

I don't mean to stand on Sproul's shoulders but he does a good job of balancing Lewis' lack of theological knowledge with his wider understanding of the Christian faith. At least he explained it better than I would have done.

Herald · #6 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 10:11 PM

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BTW, the is a paralyzing issue for me (the doctrine of hell) and I struggle greatly with not having it consume all my thoughts.

Joel, this is where Lewis shines. He doesn't challenge the orthodox view of hell, he dives into its philosophical reality. "The Great Divorce" paints a picture of the ultimate futility of those assigned to hell. To be sure Lewis' theological lapse rears its head a few times in the book. On more than one occasion he mentions purgatory, although not from a Roman Catholic persuasion. In fact his character is critical of Roman Catholicisms view of purgatory in the book.

sotzo · #7 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 10:21 PM

But isn't Lewis' point that, from our perspective this side of eternity, we have a measure to which it appears to us that a choice is made..the choice to accept or not accept the gift of salvation? IOW, it is impossible for man to know for sure what eternity holds for him since that vantage point is hidden for now.

Now I know the NT testament holds forth a confident, saved state of being for the believer, both in this life and the next. However, I don't think Lewis is going for doctrinal precision in the Great Divorce...I think the genre he is writing here is experiential in character...where what our head knows to be doctrinally accurate may not be what we are feeling. Lewis' writings are powerful precisely because they crystallize the dissonance between what we believe to be true and what we experience as creatures.

At least for me, I cannot talk about eternity without trembling as eternity is not something that allows a "do over" should one get things wrong in this life about the character of God, the plan of salvation, etc...and while I know Christ's blood is sufficient for my salvation, I often feel the painful dissonance between that knowledge and "seeing through the mirror dimly".

Herald · #8 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 10:30 PM

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But isn't Lewis' point that, from our perspective this side of eternity, we have a measure to which it appears to us that a choice is made..the choice to accept or not accept the gift of salvation. IOW, it is impossible for man to know for sure what eternity holds for him since that vantage point is hidden for now.

Sure. I buy that. I'm not sure that Lewis arrived at this point from a theological or philosophical bent, but I affirm that was his intent.

Does Lewis go for doctrinal precision in any of his writings? I've yet to see that. He paints with theological wide brushes while drilling down in order to capture the essence. That is why I like him so much.

Joel, I am painfully aware of the reality of hell. Passages such as Hebrews 4:1 have haunted me in the past. I attribute this to my failure to properly understand grace and the reality that the work of sanctification is far from complete in my life.

sotzo · #9 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 10:52 PM

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Joel, I am painfully aware of the reality of hell. Passages such as Hebrews 4:1 have haunted me in the past. I attribute this to my failure to properly understand grace and the reality that the work of sanctification is far from complete in my life.

So would you say that we cannot know for sure this side of heaven? With passages like Hebrews 4 and other "falling away" passages, it seems like we could end up being self-deceived. Of course, passages like Ephesians 1 pour out confidence for those who trust Christ.

Why must eternal matters rest on exegetical considerations?!?!

Herald · #10 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 11:03 PM

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Why must eternal matters rest on exegetical considerations?!?!

Joel, by eternal matters I take you are referencing the existence of a literal hell?

Let me answer your question with a question. What other empirical source besides scripture would authoritatively address eternal matters?

sotzo · #11 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 11:10 PM

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Joel, by eternal matters I take you are referencing the existence of a literal hell?

Not the existence of a literal hell, but how a man can know he is right with God, which includes interpreting the Scriptures rightly, since the Scriptures contain how man can be saved.

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Let me answer your question with a question. What other empirical source besides scripture would authoritatively address eternal matters?

Only Scripture...sorry, my last post was confusing. My point was just that it seems like the "falling away" passages leave open the possibility of getting to eternity and finding out one was wrong about their salvation or did not interpret the Scriptures correctly regarding salvation..and thus they end up lost.

etexas · #12 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 11:26 PM

I have to admit, when I saw the Thread Title, I thought Bill was having a "crisis" with his Microwave Oven.

turmeric · #13 (**permalink**) 01-02-2008, 12:09 AM

About Lewis: he was an Arminian, though what a writer!

About assurance: Rich said something very helpful on another thread about this when he pointed out that we are usually looking for assurance that wehave done somehting meritorious so that we can say " I know why I'm in." The very fact that we can't know why is terrifyiong. How do we know our faith is not false? If our faith is really in Christ.

Herald · #14 (**permalink**) 01-02-2008, 12:18 AM

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Only Scripture...sorry, my last post was confusing. My point was just that it seems like the "falling away" passages leave open the possibility of getting to eternity and finding out one was wrong about their salvation or did not interpret the Scriptures correctly regarding salvation..and thus they end up lost.

Joel, this is why solid exegesis is important. It is critical that we understand the scriptures, independent of feeling. I haven't just been a Baptist in crisis, I've also been a Baptist who has struggled with his assurance (at times). I've asked the question, "How can I know for certain that I am saved?" A few things have helped me to ascertain the answer to that question.

The Word of God

The most obvious answer of all for the Christian. It is the logos that instructs us as to the path of peace with God. It also warns of the peril of leaving this temporal world apart from Christ.

The Confessions

Faithful pastors and theologians labored in the scriptures to understand the faith that was handed down by Christ and the Apostles. Their summaries, while not infallible, are based upon the that which is infallible and inerrant, the holy scriptures. The heritage handed down by these men gird the foundation of the church today. That so many faithful churches subscribe to the historic confessions is a great comfort.

The Church and her Offices

The church was founded by Christ, and infused with power by the Holy Spirit. It is maintained by the same Spirit, who is our pledge of our future redemption and Christ's promised return. The offices of the church, namely pastors and elders, help equip and teach the saints in the way of truth. This brings us back to the Word of God as the source of all truth. Good teachers will practice good exegesis which is the only way to convey what the bible teaches. The passages that you and I have struggles with? The ones that seem to give wiggle room as to falling away from the faith? Proper exegesis helps to dispel that notion. Once we understand we are able to believe, even when our faith is tested.

Fellowship of the Saints

We should have no closer relationships than with the family of God. If we only fellowship with the saints on the Lord's Day we rob the body and ourselves. We are to bear on another's burdens, pray for one another, comfort one another and enjoy one another. Our desire to be with the brethren gives credence to our profession.

Sanctified Living

God's elect will make it to glory, although there are times when we may doubt that truth. Often times that happens when our lifestyle does not reflect our profession. This is a natural occurrence. If we are walking in obedience to our Lord's commands we are less apt to doubt God's promises. When we yield to sin and doubt then our assurance of God's promises is weakened.

Joel, all of these components are symbiotic. When they are present and flourishing so is our faith and our assurance that, "He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it in the day of Christ Jesus."

sotzo · #15 (**permalink**) 01-02-2008, 12:26 AM

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About assurance: Rich said something very helpful on another thread about this when he pointed out that we are usually looking for assurance that wehave done somehting meritorious so that we can say " I know why I'm in." The very fact that we can't know why is terrifyiong. How do we know our faith is not false? If our faith is really in Christ.

Along those lines, what did Jesus mean by "effort" (also translated "agonize") in Lk 13:22-24 ?

"Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to..."

Herald · #16 (**permalink**) 01-02-2008, 12:41 AM

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Originally Posted by sotzo

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About assurance: Rich said something very helpful on another thread about this when he pointed out that we are usually looking for assurance that wehave done somehting meritorious so that we can say " I know why I'm in." The very fact that we can't know why is terrifyiong. How do we know our faith is not false? If our faith is really in Christ.

Along those lines, what did Jesus mean by "effort" (also translated "agonize") in Lk 13:22-24 ?

"Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to..."

Joel, I think Peter drills down on this idea in a bit more detail. Peter writes:

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2 Peter 1:10 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

In both passages there is call to make sure of [Luke] entering the narrow door and [2 Peter] be all the more diligent about His calling and choosing. Peter adds, "for as long as you practice these things." In verse 27 of Luke 13, our Lord says, "DEPART FROM ME YOU EVIL DOERS!" Jesus is addressing a disconnect between outward profession and the internal condition of the heart. Peter does the same thing. In short, does our lifestyle match our profession? Not perfectly mind you, for we still sin. But do we display a lifestyle of repentance from sin and obedience to Christ? Certainly this is what Paul was indicating when he wrote:

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2 Corinthians 13:5 5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?