I know I posted this in the library, but I hopefully more fruitful discussion will result than just book comments.

I just finished reading this book and found it quite insightful and helpful. I'm curious what others have thought after reading this book. But, I am especially curious to hear the opinions of our black Reformed brethren. I know we have a few on the Board. I am curious if you have found his struggles similar to your own, and how we could work to be more sensative to that and help the Reformed faith transcend cultural lines.

He didn't have alot to say on the differences in worship style, though he acknowledges it. But, I think that would probably have to make a seperate volume itself. But he definitely has helped open the door to expanding our understanding of theological development.

Thoughts?

[Edited on 12-28-2005 by puritansailor]

__________________
Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

I'm over half finished with the book. I'm enjoying it very much. I have been intrigued with the comparison made between the reformation (Luther et al.) and the birth of the African American church in America. The African Americans had to come out of the white dominated churches whose doctrine was correct but held to a double standard in it's application.

I think Carter does have a lot to say about worship style in that he seems to be saying that we (Presbyterians) are ignoring the exuberance that African Americans bring to worship and therefore are creating a barrier to them. Obviously I'm paraphrasing and my book is at home so I can't pull out the quotes.

Carter's conclusion is that the American church will better understand God's dealings with his people when we begin to understand the faith of our darker brothers and sisters that has formed out of and developed through oppression.

For the African American, Carter demonstrates how a Black theology finds it's true foundation in the Reformed faith.

__________________
Bob Vigneault (Bawb Vēēn-yo)
"We are God's children and He's the Father of all fathers and we need to obey him." Jean-Baptiste Vigneault (5)

The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog) MySpace (Music), MySpace (Personal)
Member of Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I thought you guys might find this interesting in light of the current topic:

http://www.blackpuritan.com


Grace to all,
Steve Clevenger

__________________
Steve Clevenger, Pastor
Covenant Reformed Baptist Church
Warrenton, VA
www.covenantword.org
http://reformedbaptistfellowship.wordpress.com

I hear you. I have one black freind (from Uganda) who I was very close to, but I didn't meet him until college, and he was a Christian. But there were none in the town I grew up in. I didn't start to meet them until I joined the Navy. But most (though not all) people I met in the Navy, white, black, or other, were not Christians at all, even if they went to Church. They mostly cared about alcohol, sex, and the lastest sports games. It was pretty much the same in college. I would love to meet more brothers in other cultures and help move the Church above the cultural fray, especially if I end up pastoring a church in the city.

I recently met the author at a conference in Chicago and heard him preach and he is a great preacher and a very gracious man. I bought his book and look forward to reading it asap.

He has two websites:
Blog: Non Nobis Domine
Cyrene Ministries

__________________
Steve Tijerina
<a href="http://www.nccopc.org/" target="_new" style="text-decoration: underline;color:blue;">New Covenant Community Church (OPC)</a>
New Lennox, IL

[i]Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
(Hebrews 12:1-3 ESV)

Boy, ya'll were secluded! My closest friends have generally been black. My step-dad didn't understand why I couldn't make friends with any of the white kids as a child (well, hey, I wasn't born in that redneck town and the only kids accepting of others that were "outsiders" were the black kids, duh). Found them to be more open and real. Of course, I had just come from 3yrs in a situation where I was the minority (one of two blonde kids in a classroom full of a mix of asian kids).

I'll have to get that book for hubby. He also grew up around black culture.

[Edited on 12-29-2005 by LadyFlynt]

__________________
JC
URCNA
PA, but homesick for SC

"Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi

Trevor,

You mention Winston-Salem - no wonder I like you so much, since I'm a North Carolina guy myself (who was raised in the mid-west)! I too have had a number of close black friends and for several years I was immersed in playing Rhythm & Blues/Jazz on guitar. It's been a few years now since I've been around this "vibe" and I kind of miss it. I can really see why blacks, with their often exuberant worship styles would feel alienated in our predominately white Reformed Churches.

[Edited on 12-29-2005 by BrianBowman]

I think just from a historical perspective alone, Reformed and Presbyterian Churches do not have a good reputation in the black community. A black pastor from Bethleham Baptist Church, Sherard Burns, did a great talk on the legacy of Johnathan Edwards in reference to the black community, at the Jonathan Edwards Conference a couple of years ago. It's been a couple of years, but if I can recall some of his points, he stated that Reformed/Presbyterian Churches have always had the correct biblical hermenutic, but when it came to their relations to the black community, they (Reformed/Presbterian) adopted an inconsistent cultural hermenutic. Reformed/Presbetrians churches always seemed to shy away or be silent on issues affecting the black community (slavery, civil rights, racism etc) . Sherard also said that, the challenge for blacks was to take on the theology of their captors all the while denying the theology of their liberators. Sherard wrote a chapter in the book "A God Entranced
Vision of All Things" titled "Trusting the Theology of a Slave Owner." that would be an interesting read.

[Edited on 12-29-2005 by Presbyrino]

to Coleen when I was in elemantary school my friends were black and my best friend is filipino.

blade

__________________
Nathan Olaf Brandal
First Baptist Church of Kirkland

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure"
GEORGE WHITEFIELD TO JOHN WESLEY

My Blog

Trevor - we are quite a ways from Pisgah Forrest. Yep, rabid Fundies - don't even get me started. I once considered a distance seminary program from Pensacola Theological Seminary, until I heard one of their leaders make an evangelistic appeal based on "the sovereign free-will of man". This was the last straw that fell in my own Arminianism. Withing a few weeks I became a full-blown Five-Pointer.

I agree that we seem to insist upon a culturally "european" form of worship. One reason why the Reformed Bible Church helped me with my switch over...I was used to the worship style. The PCA church was singing songs that were very difficult for me to follow (the flow was uneven and sorry...but there was no rythymn to follow, I felt lost through half the music). The OPC we are in now, we expected the same out of, but suprisingly they mix the music, so it helps.

I agree. I have also had the pleasure of hearing Reverend Burns speak and he certainly has a message we need to hear today.

I also think the strong emphasis the Reformed have historically placed upon a formally educated clergy played a role in there being virtually no Reformed influence in the black community. If up until 50 years ago in many parts of the country it was nearly impossible for a black man, because of the color of his skin to attend a major university (not to mention our seminaries) then how were they supposed to get the credentials to be ordained in our denominations? Compare that to the Baptists and Methodists who would ordain a gifted man to the ministry even though he lacked a formal seminary eduction and I think it is one factor in how the Reformed lost the black community as well as much of country west of Ohio and Michigan.

__________________
_Adam_McMurry,_RE
Grace_PCA_
St._Charles, MO_

Now, Adam, you are starting to sound like Gary North!

And you will have Dr. Clark chastising you for suggesting that anyone should minister without an accredited academic degree from an established university.

__________________
Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

Here's another thought..

Many of the churches, especially the ones with strong ethnic roots tend to not be focused on outreach. Perhaps some of it is caused by distorted covenant theology, but I think it's more a result of our struggling with the effects of remaining sin, where we are most comfortable with folks who surprise -- look and sound alot like we do.

I once was a member of a church who had mainly members with a Dutch background. These were the nicest, most caring folks and they had a real sincere desire to please Christ in all of life. The problem was that they simply had no idea how to go about doing outreach. It wasn't that they didn't want to do it, but growing up in that environment it was not something they had any experience doing. (I often thought that if you could combine the passion for outreach that my Ev Free friends had with the truly faith nurturing environment of the small Reformed church that we were part of you would have an ideal situation.)

I think some of that applies to the lack of African Americans in our congregations. We often speak about the need to be inclusive and to reach out to others who are different, but when push comes to shove folks on all sides default into a comfort zone where we feel the pull to hang with others who are the same race, age and economic status. It's a real problem and one we really need to praying to overcome, especially for the witness to our kids.

My bachelor's degree is in church music and I have learned a lot in my own study of the different worship styles. I can understand why most black people may feel out of place in a worship setting that may be unfamiliar to them. But should a difference in worship style matter? I believe it is more of an educational issue. One must be educated in what are proper ways to approach God. There is only an audience of one in worship and He is the King who sits on the throne. IMHO exuberance in worship is not really reverent. What does everyone else think?

__________________
Joshua Parker
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Totally Reformed - My Blog
MDiv. Student at Whitefield
Cambridge, MA
"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over these, but they will be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years." - Revelation 20:6

Joshua,

I'm not saying let's pull out the rock band...trust me. But sometimes I think there can be more than a monotone type singing. Sometimes, it's not even the music, but the ppl...they sing like they are scared. Singing with the children throughout the week helps them enjoy worship (we have endless requests from the kids during family devotions...LOL). Some of these ppl sing like they never sing unless they are being forced to and church forces them to. So maybe it's attitude? There are worshipful songs, there are songs to praise Him, there are songs that throw you to your knees (not suggesting this literally). I don't suggest that we run around the church and jiggle on the floor like the pentacostals do...but does it hurt to have a song make you cry or to make you actually feel worshipful...or are we all just practicing to get the notes right for heaven, KWIM?

BTW, I agree, that there are other issues on why Reformed churches haven't made much headway into black communities. I was just agreeing with the one issue that had been stated at that time.

LOL! Excuse me while I clean the coffee off the monitor.

I'm not against academic credentials, but I do think when you look at why in our circles there is little influence in the African American community you can't ignore the fact up until 50 years ago it would have been virtually impossible for a black man to be ordained in our denominations. The reasoning behind having an educated clergy is good, but as with all actions, there are unindented consequences.

FWIW, at my previous job, I worked alongside of very godly black man who was (is) a COGIC pastor, struggling in his "spare" time to get a church started in the most dangerous part of the city. What he lacked in any kind of formal theological training he made up for by knowing his Bible. I'm not setting formal training against Bible knowledge, but I think in our circles there needs to be a way for us to accommodate people like my friend. If the only answer is for him to go back and get a four year college degree and spend another four years in seminary, that's a non-answer. Or we're stuck with having to rationalize how God seems to mysteriously call mainly middle class white guys to be His pastors.

This is frustrating for any truely "working class" citizen. I know a few men that have never been to seminary, but have a better understanding of theology and scripture than some men that have. It would be nice if seminaries didn't require 1) a four year previous degree in whatever and 2) didn't charge so much that many men with seminary degrees have to drop out of ministry to pay off their debt, let alone alot of men have trouble going if they already have families and a SAHW or a wife that can't earn enough to support them.

Sorry, Adam, to make you make a mess!!

I actually think you are right (and so is North in this instance) about the need to accomodate the cultural difficulties involved. I am very much in favor of the movement that the PCA is starting in this area, while at the same time a proponent of an educated clergy.

I think that we also need to be willing to accomodate some differences in our own churches as well. For example, I would preach interrupted by "amens" and "preach it" if it meant that a number of African Americans would attend my church. I have had to do it - see my sermon on the 6th commandment on my webpage - and it is not easy. Worth it, but not easy.

I think we are approaching the ability to receive seminary training without 4 year degrees etc. Check out this thread for a list of courses that can be listened to at home. Again, not to get into the certification or distance ed debate. Just saying that there are ways to get the 'teachin' without paying $1000 a class.

General question:

In theory...if a person could stand in front of presbytery for 12 hours fielding questions etc. including langauge requirements and do extremely well (defined as better than sem. grads)...would he be allowed to be ordained? Are we ordaining for degrees or trusting that they are a marker to show that they have acquired certain knowledge?

__________________
Chris Rhoades -33
Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
""True theology is not theoretical, but practical. The end of it is living, that is to live a godly life."