I know I will get alot of HuHs and your crazy on this one....

This is more about the modesty issue pertaining to the headcovering then over the worship issue.

So I have been wondering what exactly the veil is. What is a full veil? Does it consist of face veil? And what exactly is the head? When the woman’s head is to be covered does that mean also the face?

Some research results are as follows:

Katakalupto ”Strongs 2619” to cover wholly, i.e. Veil ; cover, hide.

But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head. (1 Corinthians 11:5)

Radiyd “Strongs 7289” Something spread, wide wrapper or large veil; a shawl.

"And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel. For she [had] said unto the servant, What man [is] this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant [had] said, It [is] my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself." (Genesis 24:64,65)

Concerning Tamar's duplicity.

"And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which [is] by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife…And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood." (Genesis 38:14,19)

“The watchmen that went about the city found me, they smote me, they wounded me; the keepers of the walls took away my veil from me.” (Song of Solomon 5:7)

Tsammah “Strongs 6777” A Veil

“Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy veil, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen.” (Isaiah 47:2-3)

Definition of Head

Head: the upper or anterior division of the body that contains the brain, the chief sense organs, and the mouth



Why do some of the earliest writings on the Headcovering from the church fathers talk about the face being covered also?

Clement of Alexandria (153-217 a.d.)

"And she will never fall, who puts before her eyes modesty, and her shawl; nor will she invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face. For this is the wish of the Word, since it is becoming for her to pray veiled.”

"It has also been commanded that the head should be veiled and the face covered. For it is a wicked thing for beauty to be a snare to men.

Tertullian (AD 198)

Let them know that the whole head constitutes "the woman." Its limits and boundaries reach as far as the place where the robe begins. The region of the veil is co-extensive with the space covered by the hair when unbound; in order that the necks too may be encircled. For it is they which must be subjected, for the sake of which "power" ought to be "had on the head:" the veil is their yoke.

…. who cover not only the head, but the face also, so entirely, that they are content, with one eye free, to enjoy rather half the light than to prostitute the entire face.

Hippolytus (170-236 a.d.)

"Canon Seventeenth. Of woman, that they should cover their faces and their heads."




What are your thoughts?????? Especially from those who already believe in the HeadCovering?

__________________
Michael Daniels
Reformed, RPCNA
Denton, Maryland

[i][b]As For Me And My House, We Will Serve The Lord[/i][/b]

[SIZE="1"][I][FONT="Century Gothic"]Unum Deum in Trinitate: Pater, Filius, et Spiritus Sanctus [RIGHT]Sola scriptura - Sola gratia - Sola fide - Solus Christus - Soli Deo gloria - Solum psalterium - Lex talionis[/RIGHT][/FONT][/I][/SIZE]

Hey....millions of Muslims can't be wrong!

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Or can they?

__________________

Travis Speegle
Redeemer Presbyterian, PCA (Waco, Tx)
Pacific Cross Roads, PCA (Los Angeles, CA)


"When it comes to trustworthy theologians one can usually honor the rule of thumb that the deader the better."-Dr. John Hannah, DTS (of all places)

Sorry...sarcasm never goes over well.... I am glad I do it poorly. Maybe I should just refrain.


Honestly though, if one believes in the headcovering, then they do well to look into just what that means.

So Thunaer is being faithful under his own convictions to find out the details of what obedience means and so I congratulate him and pray for him on that.


It does appear that there can be a case made for full veiling - a very strong case - if one buys into the need to veil in the first place.

When Jesus spoke of looking at a women in lust, this was during a day when women had their head covered, so the face seemed to be the part of the body that caused the lust.



Me...I do not beleive that a headcovering is needed. If I did, Thunaer's post is a very logical question and needs to be answered.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Michael,
To answer your question, A.T Robertson wrote:

11:14 Nature itself [hē phusis autē]. He reenforces the appeal to custom by the appeal to nature in a question that expects the affirmative answer [oude]. [Phusis], from old verb [phuō], to produce, like our word nature (Latin natura), is difficult to define. Here it means native sense of propriety (cf. Ro 2:14) in addition to mere custom, but one that rests on the objective difference in the constitution of things.

According to (one of the greatest Greek scholars), the word used in the phrase "does not nature itself..." has to do with the actual custom of the day; if that's the case, then you're going to have to look up how the Roman/Greek church did it (that's the only way that I can see how you're going to get a solid answer)...

on a personal note: if God or the Bible was so concerned about the headcovering being 'used' today, then wouldn't we have some sort of explaination as to what this 'thing' really is? Should it be white, black, or purple? Are 'designs' okay on the fabric? etc.; it seems to get very subjective and arbitrary when we read into a 1st century text what our own (21st century) preconceived ideas are about what a headcovering should look like or might be... these headcovering questions tend to forget the context that the Bible was written in and they assume that we can somehow come up with binding/Biblical rules while the Bible is actually pretty 'silent' on the issue.

... Robertson might be on to something

__________________
Matthew Scheffer
Christ The Redeemer (non-denominational)
http://www.christredeemer.com
Spokane, WA

Thanks for the encouragement and prayer brother..... I know in the past we have butted heads over cultural considerations but I have always respected you and the work you do..... And we agree on alot of issues. You continue to be in our prayers..



Michael

P.S. You know I was read a book on the Byzantium empire and they had a map of the empire in the book and I was surprise to see your screen name.... lol Pergamum is a town in Turkey.....

__________________
Michael Daniels
Reformed, RPCNA
Denton, Maryland

[i][b]As For Me And My House, We Will Serve The Lord[/i][/b]

[SIZE="1"][I][FONT="Century Gothic"]Unum Deum in Trinitate: Pater, Filius, et Spiritus Sanctus [RIGHT]Sola scriptura - Sola gratia - Sola fide - Solus Christus - Soli Deo gloria - Solum psalterium - Lex talionis[/RIGHT][/FONT][/I][/SIZE]

I don't think the bible is silent on the issue of headcovering, but it is silent on the exact nature of the headcovering. If this is an argument against headcovering then we might as well abandon all modesty and decency since scripture does not give us details on how to dress.

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Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA): "A bunch of hippie Calvinists"
Winston-Salem, NC

The key from Scripture is that the hair is covered...IMO at any rate.

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Richard
CofE
UK

Hey Scott,
Can you biblically define "modesty and decency"?

__________________
Matthew Scheffer
Christ The Redeemer (non-denominational)
http://www.christredeemer.com
Spokane, WA