UnderAge Marriage?

Coram Deo · #1 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:14 PM

I had a conversation with a Man this week who was from Africa. This man's tribe allows for underage marriage to 8 year old girls. I find that morally sickening. But he asked me to prove from the scripture how it would be morally wrong and not just in our culturally biased understanding..... He said he searched the scriptures from stem to stern and he can not find any limitation on underage marriage...

How would you answer this gentlemen? What scripture would you use? How would Theonomy handle this situation? I understand the whole law of the nation understanding but his tribe legally allows this.....

Any thoughts,

Ivanhoe · #2 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:16 PM

I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.

~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.

~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."

Coram Deo · #3 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:25 PM

I did use the "Girl hasn't matured physically" reason.... But he was looking for scripture.... As he said the bible speaks about immoral sexual sins and punishments for them.. Bestiality, rape, adultery, divorce, sodomy, incest, Necrophilia, Whoredom, etc.... But where is the law against taking a wife from a underage, underdeveloped girl......

Another question, How young is to young?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.

~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.

~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."

Pergamum · #4 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:27 PM

Women menstruate at 10 in the US.... a pure physical reason won't fly.

I know of many groups here that buy their wives as soon as they grow breasts and menstruate. Most wait until there is proof she knows how to cook.

As far as moral disgust goes, we in the West wait so stinking long that I read the average man has 7 sex partners in his life and the average woman 4.

Probably at least some of these partners might be due to the difficulty of being ready for "it" but having your culture tell you that you need to finish another 4 years of college before you are ready to marry.

The Jews had a Bar Mitzah and a somethingfor girls right? Some sort of ritualized entrance into adulthood. It would seem that one would need to enter into adulthood according to that people before marriage could be seen as legit. That COULD happen much younger than the West is willing to concede.

Dena · #5 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:27 PM

yes. there is something to be said for "commen sense" here. there is no reason to marry someone who is 8. they are not physically or emotionally/mentally, etc. ready to be married.

it says nothing in the Bible, verbatim, about not marrying an infant, yet we wouldn't say thats ok, would we?

BobVigneault · #6 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:31 PM

You won't find an explicit teaching from scripture.

What you must do is to treat child brides as a symptom of something else. Why is this being done?

If the answer is the man is looking for a young girl because there is less chance she'll have aids, then we need to deal with it as an aids issue and resolve the drug or prostitution problem.

If a family is marrying off their little one to get rid of a financial burden then that is just wrong.

Let's face it, it's not for procreation or even companionship.

Underage marriage takes place where there is something that has gone wrong in a society and the problem is rooted in sin. A healthy culture would not settle for such a practice.

Pergamum · #7 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:32 PM

How about this:

Many arrange their marriage even while the woman is still an infant, but the actual act of marriage waits until she is ready? This happens in Asia I have read, and have heard of 2 cases myself. If one has no moral qualms against arranged marriage, then how could they object to this?

Pergamum · #8 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:34 PM

Bob: I think a large part of the question is "What exactly IS "underage"', right?

BobVigneault · #9 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:34 PM

It may be possible to make an argument that the practice constitutes promiscuity and then Romans 13:13 could be used as a foundation.

BobVigneault · #10 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Bob: I think a large part of the question is "What exactly IS "underage"', right?

Right, but that's like asking "What is p*rn?", and as you demonstrated a couple weeks ago, it depends on the setting and culture. There is something in the Bible referred to as 'decency'. That is not a definite quantity but where would we be without decent people and a sense of decency. Taking a child bride just seems so indecent.

Me Died Blue · #11 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.

~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.

~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."

Wouldn't the first reason you gave be itself an example of natural law?

Wannabee · #12 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:46 PM

Another consideration: A young lady (girl) is under the headship of her father until he gives her away. The giving of daughters to husbands is obviously Scriptural. It is the father's responsiblity to both find a suitable husband for the daughter and protect her by not giving her away until both she and the groom are ready. This may be waiting until she is spiritually strong enough, and trained in the matters of homekeeping. It may be when the man has shown that he is capable of supporting a wife and providing for her. I would submit that it should be all of the above. This may be when she's 14, and it may not be until she's 40.
Central to this issue is the fact that fathers must step up to the plate and assume the responsiblity that God has given them. If they are not tending to the needs of their daughters then this, and much worse, will happen (is happening).

BobVigneault · #13 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 12:46 PM

You know what, when it comes to these tricky issues I'm going to start borrowing from Jefferson.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident!!!!"

If Jefferson saw it, there must be an argument somewhere. I mean, the man who invented dumbwaiters for wine bottles, the hideaway bed, macaroni and cheese, not to mention a macaroni extruding device can't be wrong, can he??? MAC AND CHEESE PEOPLE!!!!!

py3ak · #14 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 01:12 PM

I think the Bible does at least lay down a norm:

Quote:

And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I made you flourish like a plant of the field. And you grew up and became tall and arrived at full adornment. Your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown; yet you were naked and bare.

"When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, you were at the age for love, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness; I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord GOD, and you became mine.

(Ezekiel 16:6-8, ESV)

The age for love is clearly after physical maturity has been reached: not just started, but attained with "full adornment". That rules out every 8-year old I've ever known.

Pergamum · #15 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 01:15 PM

So, what is the acceptable and decent and reasonable age?

Say, the average onset of puberty and menses for a people is 13-14. Is that then the acceptable lower range and the rare 10 year old that begins menses early is thus still considered not ready?

Or for a people whose neccessary life skills can all be taught by a girl's 12th birthday.If she can cook by 12 is she marriageable by 12?

Being reasonable, there must be reasons to deduce that 14 is okay but 12 is too young beyond mere subjectivity?

It seems that there are physical reasons (menses and reproducibility), cognitive reasons (ability to master the skills of the home) and social reasons (a people's definition of child and adult and at what age the initiation into adulthood is made). But the minimum age at which these factors could be fulfilled could vary from 12-14. Weird for us.

Pergamum · #16 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 01:19 PM

Ruben: What is all this happens at 11?

VirginiaHuguenot · #17 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 02:00 PM

It is interesting to read Calvin's perspective (his comments on 1 Cor. 7.36):

Quote:

By the flower of her age he means the marriageable age. This lawyers define to be from twelve to twenty years of age.

Coram Deo · #18 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 02:29 PM

Ok, this is the first attempt at a scriptural argument.... Very interesting..... Sounds Plausible... Let me think on this and consider and read a few comments on it..... It makes sense..... But what is the context of the passage?

Even if this to be true, which would prevent marriage under the age of 12, but does this deal with other so-called Child-Brides between the ages of 12 and 16 that happens around the world and even in our own country out west in Utah? Is our country's morality higher then God's Standards? Most people believe that marriage under 17 is immoral yet along to a 13 year old. People are currently in Jail for having 15 year old brides...

VirginiaHuguenot , That Calvin quote is very interesting......

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

I think the Bible does at least lay down a norm:

Quote:

And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I made you flourish like a plant of the field. And you grew up and became tall and arrived at full adornment. Your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown; yet you were naked and bare.

"When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, you were at the age for love, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness; I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord GOD, and you became mine.

(Ezekiel 16:6-8, ESV)

The age for love is clearly after physical maturity has been reached: not just started, but attained with "full adornment". That rules out every 8-year old I've ever known.

Amazing Grace · #19 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunaer

People are currently in Jail for having 15 year old brides...

Where, as far as I know there is no law preventing this action. They are in jail for having sex with them, but not marrying them. Once married, you are allowed sexual relations.

Gloria · #20 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.

~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.

~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."

The thought of an 8 year girl being married sickens and saddens me.

Gloria · #21 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

You won't find an explicit teaching from scripture.

What you must do is to treat child brides as a symptom of something else. Why is this being done?

If the answer is the man is looking for a young girl because there is less chance she'll have aids, then we need to deal with it as an aids issue and resolve the drug or prostitution problem.

If a family is marrying off their little one to get rid of a financial burden then that is just wrong.

Let's face it, it's not for procreation or even companionship.

Underage marriage takes place where there is something that has gone wrong in a society and the problem is rooted in sin. A healthy culture would not settle for such a practice.

Wisdom. Very wise question to ask.

py3ak · #22 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 03:36 PM

Obviously when this age is attained is going to vary from climate to climate and culture to culture. What I would emphasize is the completion of maturation. Has vertical growth stopped (you became tall)? Is puberty finished (full adornment)?

Although I personally have never known an 11 or 12 year old who had arrived, I suppose it's possible. And since mental maturity is not determined by physical age, I suppose you could have someone mature enough in a psychological sense to be married at that age.