Some here smoke and some here drink. Some of us like to eat too.

Any advice on how to know how much to limit these activities? What are some physical and psychological indicators of how much we allow ourselves to enjoy?

Example: I like coffe. I define addiction as a physical complex of symptoms that produces greater and greater tolerance to a substance and, if withdrawn suddenly, produces symptoms of withdrawal. By my own definition of addiction therefore, I have been addicted to caffeine at various stages in my life. Being addicted to anything seems contradictory to the Bible's words not to let anything master us.

Also, I am heavy. I used to lift heavy, heavy weights, and now I am thick, over 200 lbs at 5'8''. How serious is this as a theological issue? How much is my sanctification tied to my ideal BMI?

For those that smoke, do you need a cig in the am or after a meal? Is there a "choice" to then you smoke, or are you compelled to smoke? Do you get a sore throat, and yet persist in smoking despite ill health effects? For those that drink, what is the line between sanctified buzz and drunkenness?

I do not want to be legalist or libertine. And I am mostly curious concerning the physical and psychological evidences by which you self-monitor your activities.

What are your personal guidelines by which you monitor your own intake of pleasurable substances? Include coffee to, if you would.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

"I've always appreciated Thomas Aquinas' answer to the question of how much alcohol one may drink without sinning:

His reply: "usque ad hilaritatem," to the point of cheerfulness.

Which seems consistent with Psalm 104:14-15

He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

__________________
Glenn Ferrell
Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Boise, Idaho

http://sovereignredeemer.org

http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_de...formationidaho


Nec Tamen Consumebatur


The duty of magistrates...extends to both tables of the law, ... those laws are absurd which disregard the rights of God, and consult only for men. - Calvin, Institutes, IV:20:9

Likewise, I find alcohol to be the easier issue. I had not heard Aquinas' answer before - it's a good one.

My standard has always been (excluding the cases of numbing extreme physical pain): sinful drunkenness occurs when one is no longer able to clearly articulate a prayer, offer a clear presentation of the gospel, etc because of the drink. In light of the above, doing so with a slightly bigger smile on your face is fine

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Jeremy Gage
First Baptist Church
Durham, NC

"No heart can conceive that treasury of mercies which lies in this one privilege, in having liberty and ability to approach unto God at all times, according to his mind and will." - John Owen

I don't drink enough to make a difference. I don't smoke either, although I'd have consider the bowl and the cigar. I have smoked some in the past.

Eating...well, I don't eat a lot, but I don't eat very good food either. It's hit and miss, especially since I've started working third shift. I really don't have time at work to sit down and eat...even in a 12 hour period! I've lost about four pounds since working third shift.

I really don't think there is any problem here unless what you are doing is greatly affecting you to the point that you are not able to fulfill your obligations. Or, on the other hand, you are so involved in your fitness and appearance that you aren't able to fulfill your obligations. That was my problem at one time.

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Ivan R. Schoen, B.A., M.A., M.L.I.S.
Pastor of Maranatha Baptist Church (SBC)
Poplar Grove, IL, USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org

I think that's a really good question, and I'd like to suggest a clarification - that too much is sin. This is not a lifestyle decision; it's a sin decision and it should impact on repentance and assurance.

Let's take the examples in turn and I think all I can do is present my judgments, and not what I think to be infallible ones.

Smoking - waste of money; demonstrates poor stewardship. This is because I can't imagine smoking to be pleasurable, so I just can't understand it. If it is a good pleasure to some, then the use of money would be more reasonable. On the other hand, it is clearly addictive and it's clear (to me) that any addiction is weaking ones potential to be available for God and to discern sinful desires from non-sinful ones. That would go for caffeine as well.

Alcohol - obviously if one is not able to have fellowship with God then he has gone too far. My personal judgment for myself is that a long way before then is too far because of health concerns - it is dehydrating and calories that don't help me. That's sin - to take myself away from usefulness to God for my own pleasures. I like it too much though and so I've made my wife my "gatekeeper". I don't allow myself to drink more than her (and she is very moderate) so I won't get into bad habits.

Food - I believe this is a cultural blind spot where we don't see the sin that is there. Speaking as one who is 25 pounds overweight (but who has lost 35 pounds in the past 9 months) I was deep in an habitual besetting sin when I was overeating. This fact should not be minimised, because (assurance of) salvation itself depends on it or it should depend on it if we have a right understanding of repentance and assurance - without true repentance will any of us enter the kingdom of God? I was feasting without God; I was indulging my own desires without reference to God. I'm not saying everyone overweight is in sin, but for each person it should be a personal indicator to examine themselves carefully. On the other hand, someone skinny can be deep in sinful eating as well, such a person needs to be extra careful to not sin, just as someone who doesn't easily get drunk needs to be extra careful with alcohol.

-----Added 7/19/2009 at 03:43:20 EST-----

I would go further than that. Even if you're able to meet your obligations, if you're not reaching the potential that God is making available to you, you are refusing his blessings and sinning. Your point though about being over-involved in fitness is great; our potential involves being healthy and energetic, not necessarily super-fit.

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Paul
No denomination, affiliated with FIEC
"Deliver me from worldly dispositions, for I am born from above and destined for glory" - Valley of Vision
"They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation" - Peter

I don't smoke because smoking is viewed as a vice by a significant portion of the population... and I wouldn't want to give the wrong signals to other believers. Besides as a sports guy I certainly don't want tobacco smoke to wear down my performance.

Drinks... never really drank in my youth as I was then in strongly anti-alcohol fundyland. Only when I left then I start to drink... like once every few days and during special celebrations. For myself the most I have ever drank is two glasses of wine. But I can live without it!

As for food... I'm now trying to lose weight as my vice during my younger days was gorging. I must slim down!

The main point I believe is about self-control and also, can you live without it? Spurgeon smoked cigars, but never once did he lived as though as he cannot live without it. That's my 2 pennies...

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Tian Long (you can call me LTL)
Reformed Baptist
Singapore
"God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble." - Psalm 46:1 (NKJV)

For His honor, glory and name!

I enjoy my pipe, I can enjoy a good drink, and I love good food. How much is to much? Each person must decide where sin in those areas begin for them

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Doug
Baptist
Hemet, Ca
Old Time Radio Podcast

So...I don't smoke. I don't drink enough to get wet. I'm not overweight. I'm in relatively good health and condition.

So, I'm good to go.

Good to go where?

Out the door!

In cases of extreme physical pain, drunkenness is okay? Like self-medication? I think I agree due to the verse about giving strong drink to the dying.

Does this also include psychological pain as well (i.e. grief)?

I am addicted to cigarettes -- I smoke about a pack (20) a day. Were I to 'quit' right now (9:30-ish in the morning), I would probably begin to undergo significant withdrawal symptoms by late afternoon or early evening, which would probably 'convince' me to have a cigarette. But this does not mean that I would not have a 'choice' in the matter; I always have a choice. My choice would just not be free from compelling or determining factors. But what choice ever is?

Everything that I do -- that I choose -- can be explained (entailing determination) by untold physical/psychological factors, which cause me to desire this or that end under the guise of the good (whether what I desire is actually 'good' [moral] is irrelevant to this point -- what matters is that I perceive the end to be good, which is the means by which any course of action is taken by a moral agent). What I desire for myself, caused, is what I end up doing. 'Freedom' just consists of never being forced from without to choose counter to what I desire for myself... which, strictly speaking, never happens.

Long story short, the fact I am compelled to smoke does not contradict the fact that I choose to smoke, and vice-versa. I just do not choose as I would were 'libertarian' freedom true... which it isn't.

__________________
Nathan Tyler
Reformed Baptist
University of Toronto (Student: Hons. B.A. in Philosophy)
Ontario, Canada

1689'er

http://nathantyler.wordpress.com

I guess I'm in the minority here in that I don't think that anything we've been discussing is wrong/sinful.

I don't smoke, but those who do aren't any less sinful than those of us who watch too much TV instead of bible study, eat more than we should, eat prepackaged foods, live in the city where the air is so polluted it hurts to breath in the afternoon, sleep more than we need, keep our mouth closed when we should open it, etc.

Isn't there a verse about all foods being ok?


I guess I just see that by these standards we would all have to live in a monastery, eat only whole foods grown by ourselves without pesticides, and read / study the bible 24/7 to keep from sinning and then we'd just find new ways to sin!

__________________
Robert
Lay Person
PCA
West Virginia
Go share your faith

My understanding is that anything we do to please us, is sin.

Everything we do should be with the Glory of God in mind.

__________________
Thanks in Christ
Gord
RTI Student
Burlington, Ontario

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

I believe that Proverbs 31:6-7 does allow for it.

About 10 months ago, I had two terrible pinched nerves in my back. The only solution for those is rest, and some massage. There was no possible position I could lay in that would allow for sleep, and the pain was causing my muscles to tense and making the pain worse. Motrin, Tylenol, and a few stronger painkillers from previous dental work were completely ineffective. Didn't even touch the pain. I couldn't sleep, eat, or rest in any way because of it.

So, on a Friday, I told my wife to go pick me up a fifth of Jack Daniel's, and that I would see her on Sunday. The strong drink allowed me to sleep heavily for 2 straight days, only waking up when the pain returned, which was then doused with more liquor so I could go back to sleep. Sunday afternoon, I woke up and 90% of the pain was gone, and I was good for work on Monday.

In my mind, if strong pharmaceuticals that knock you out completely are fine in these cases, so is a more natural (and effective) method.

Psychological pain - possibly. I would be open to it, but it's a much more dangerous animal. The verse describes someone "giving" the drink to the one in suffering, rather than the one who is suffering taking it on himself. I think this could show an amount of "supervision" of the situation by one who is not in the pain. If my wife were not around, the intentional drunkenness would have been more dangerous and possibly ill-advised. I think this would apply even moreso for those with psychological issues (during a limited time - it's not a long-term treatment).

I drink, smoke cigars, and eat.

It is eating which has been my family and my demise. We like food and eat way too much of it. I am 5'7" and was 228 lbs about a year ago and got down to 163 lbs about 4months ago. Due to bad decisions to start eating the old way after some personal tribulations in my life I gained back 30 lbs of it and have been back eating the right way for 2 weeks and am now around 190. I'm determined to be at 157 which is a normal BMI by age 40 and maintain it.

All this to say overeating is sinful and is harmful to the Temple especially if you have a family history of health issues. I'm not saying you have to have a perfect BMI but get out of the danger zone before it's too late.

As far as drinking I can consume up to 4 (12 oz) beverages (beer) over a period of 4 hours or so usually with food and still be within my moderate range. Anything more than that for me is excessive. I will say that I've consumed less and stopped based on my internal gague. Wine is 1 or 2 at the most for moderate consumption, anything more and I've crossed the line.

Cigars. I smoke 1 or 2 a week and do not inhale. However as the wife and I consider trying to get pregnant in a month or so the Cigars will cease, more weight will come off, and less consumption of alcohol will ensue as it impacts sterility.

Now that's more than you wanted to know I'm sure but I'm particularly expressive for some reason this morning.

__________________
Wayne Whitmer
Member, Rio Rancho OPC
Albuquerque, NM

Heard a good sermon recently the gist of which was that anything we turned to for comfort, or to sustain us, is potentially an idol ... that an idol is more likely to be a pint of Ben and Jerry's than a golden statute. When he mention the term "comfort food," I had to wince.

God has given us many things to support us physically, food and drink among them. And part of our enjoying God, is enjoying what he has provided us in His creation. But crying in our beer or turning to a pound of M&Ms to get us over the hump is a different matter. I guess like so many other things, we have to examine our motivations.

Not sure what to say about smoking. It seems like we find out more and more how harmful it really is. I like the smell of a good pipe tobacco, and know many who enjoy an occasional good cigar. I really don't know what to think on this one.

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JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/

Excellent Points. Emotional Eating, been there done that. My own personal rule with alcohol is it is only consumed when in good spirits and never to be consumed to comfort (except to relax after a hard day's work) or when in a poor mood.

If I covet it I quit. I if I want it I ask myself 'why'? If I enjoy it I praise God.

__________________
Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA

"What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!"
John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)

[quote=Pergamum;656485]Just to be clear, and not take anything away from your post dear brother:

Pro 31:6 "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts".

The Hebrew here that we interpret "perish" is the word, "'âbad", which, in its literal sense is to be "greatly troubled". The Dutch translate it "verloren" which means to us, forlorn. I think this is a better translation of the text. It has less to do with death, and more to do with what is perceived to be inescapable despondency.


Blessings!

__________________
Pastor Jerrold H. Lewis. (Dipl. IT; Assc. A; B.Th; M.Th Candidate, PRTS)
Lacombe Free Reformed Church
"A hot iron, though blunt, will pierce sooner than a cold one, though sharper."

JOHN FLAVEL

My Blog - Click HERE
Our Church site - Click HERE

All I can say about all this is that I'm glad God didn't tell us exactly how many ounces of food we can have a day or how many glasses of wine we can drink each day.

Too much eating is when I eat and then next day I step on the scale and I've gained weight. If I eat until my stomach hurts, I've eaten too much. These days, if I eat until I'm full, I've eaten too much.

__________________
J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

That sounds like a hobbit!

__________________

Amen! This is because . . .

" . . . The kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." Romans 14:17

Worrying about set limits of food and drink is to dwell on the negative, and dictates issuing limitations or prohibitions of food and drink, is just more temporal law.

Such is not the positive message of gospel and grace, which focuses on the spiritual and the eternal.

__________________
Ronda Rush
Church of the Redeemer
Independent Reformed
California


" . . .It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.'" Matthew 4:4

I think that I might be addicted to eating. When I skip b-fast I feel irritable & short-tempered! I find that when I go a day or two without food all that I can think about is eating!!

PLEASE PRAY FOR ME THAT I MIGHT HAVE *VICTORY* OVER THIS IDOL!!!

Sounds silly doesn't it?

IMHO we are so much influneced by our modern (& post-modern) society that we are (almost) unable to think in Biblical categories.

What does a currently popular theory about "addiction" have to do with sin? Either an action is a sin, or it isn't. Period. Full-stop.

Now I do not (now) smoke. I used to smoke pipes, cigars, & 2 pack of cigs a day. About 3 years ago I stopped. NB I didn't "quit" after all "no one like a quitter!" I just stopped. My smoking was not a "sin" it was just wasteful, so I stopped.

I do drink. Mostly because I am thirsty! (Opps, is that a craving?)

Did you ever pause, from calculating how many oz's of wine or beer is "OK" for a christian, to consider that at the time the scripture was written most people drank a couple of x's more than the modern average?

Our obsession with the "proper amount of wine one may drink with out sin" would strike those who recieved the scriptures first hand as... strange. Our obbsesion would be more of a conceren to them then the number of glasses of wine you consumed.

Perhaps because they knew first hand what it meant to "be drunk" In our day we focus on BAC, while the scripture focuses on behavior.

Happy? Disctracted from your problems? The scripture says this is one of the "Blessings" of wine. But the RCMP may differ if your BAC is too high!

Now I agree that driving a motor vehicle signifigantly alters the issue. The increased risk to others if you had 4 vs 3 glasses of wine, does come into play if you are driving a car or walking a couple of hundred yards home. But the issue has shifted to judgement, and away from how much is a sin to drink.

__________________
Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

The question of stewardship hasn't been directly explored on this thread. (Several posts have touched on the issue.) On my last visit to a 7-11, I glanced up and was surprised by how expensive cigarettes had gotten. Some alcohol isn't cheap, either.

Now some folks here can easily afford those costs. But is it good stewardship to drop over $40 on something that you plan to burn up?

__________________
Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

I don't think that's a fair analogy. For one thing, food is necessary for life. Tobacco and alcohol are not.

I disagree. Maybe some actions are binary by nature (murder, adultery, etc.): either you're a murderer or you're not. However, too much focus on a good "thing" and being too consumed by an acceptable "activity," so much so that your focus is stolen away from God, can turn those perfectly normals "things" and "activities" into great idols. I believe everyone on the PB can say something similar from experience alone.

__________________
Joel Lee
Redeemer Hoboken Church (attending)
Hoboken, NJ

May I direct you to Greg Nichols.

__________________
Independent Reformed Baptist Church (NE England, nr. Durham)

Do have a clear conscience, don't have an addiction.

__________________
Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

Or not shop for the best bargain

Or not use all the coupons you could

Or not walk to work when it's humanly possible


I'm being a little sarcastic but I have to say once again...though smoking is gross smelling, and expensive (I don't smoke) we tend to point fingers at these types of things as sin and would never say that "throwing a pair of shoes away before they were literally falling off of our feet" as "no big deal" when it's exactly the same.

I just don't agree.

As far as eating is concerned, we should exercise self-control as it is a characteristic of a Christian. Truth is, some people can eat more than others without gaining weight. Some people are more active and therefore require more food to fuel their active lifestyles. One thing is that if we are grossly overweight, we don't exactly scream self-control.

Pastor Al Martin spoke on this. He said this (paraphrased): our weight is a result of what goes in (eating) minus what is worked off (exercise) minus what comes out (bathroom). So if too much is staying on then we must either eat less or exercise more (didn't mention anything about laxatives )

And yes, some people have to work harder than others because of genes. Eating is not the sin, lack of self-control in eating is a sin.

__________________
John Lanier
Elder in Training
Reformed Baptist Church
Topeka, KS

How about us folk who are semi-disabled with sit down jobs who want to stay off the system????

Ok....I'm going to play devil's advocate here...don't take offense....


What scripture support is their for this statement:

2 Timothy 3:3
2 Peter 1:6
Titus 1:8
Acts 24:25
Galatians 5:23
Titus 2:2
Titus 2:4
1 Timothy 3:2

These have different contexts and use different terms (sober, temperance, self-control) but the concept is the same, that Christians are to be self-controlled, possess temperance, be sober and not ruled by self and its desires. This would apply to eating as well as everything else in life.

Paul also says something along the lines of " 'All things are lawful for me', but I will not let anything take control of me" in 1 Cor.

__________________
Steven Nemes
Phoenix, AZ

Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy must be answered - C.S. Lewis

Obviously, it becomes more difficult when disabilities are brought in to the equation. I would say that one should do whatever exercise they can and a person wouldn't need to eat as much because of the fact that they don't burn many calories. But for extreme disabilities we would run into a problem because in order to exhibit self-control you must be able to "control" self. If one is unable to control self in the way of exercise then it would be a problem.

Why do you have to ask such difficult questions!!!

Sorry guys, I did not mean for the thread to lead into a debate of whether these things were sin, but how much.

I did not want to spark a debate on legalism/libertinism but wanted some personal guidelines by which you self-regulate your behavior. My aim is not to run down other views but to gain wisdom so that I may live smarter.

If things are lawful for me, as long as they do not take control of me - how does one take back and re-establish control. This would include many things besides the big three of smoking, drinking, over-eating. This would include tv watching, working too much etc, spending too much money or shopping for items not really needed.

At one point has control been gained over me, and what are some things we do to keep our control?

[quote=John Lanier;657373]Thank you very much...I'll check all of the refs out in more depth and get back to you....

With regard to alcohol, I have a 2 drink median with a variance which depends on the alcohol content. But the average is 2. This figure is preconceived. So when I do enjoy a few drinks if I get to 2 and still desire more I may opt for a third. But if I get there and desire a fourth I know I'm compromising my preconceived limit and stop at that. Kind of a good way for me to override the inhibition. But as I said it all usually depends on if it's beer, wine, or say a mixed drink.

Smoking for me means either abstinence or addiction, there's no way for me to casually smoke.

__________________
Travis McClain
Member of Covenant OPC St. Augustine, FL
Student at Moody Bible Institute
Facebook
Resident of Palatka, FL

I guess I'm a fat, difficult, semi-disabled person

Man oh man...are you sinning big time