Perhaps Fred is right, and I should defer to his assessment. I have not been around many PCA churches, nor am I familiar with the various Sonship scenes. I have been blessed to have been under balanced preaching and teaching in my one church in the PCA, plus have my own sense of Biblical balance and seek to stay true to the gospel. I have not seen the aberrant forms of this teaching.

__________________
Steve Rafalsky
Elder, International Evangelical Church (Reformed)
Limassol, Cyprus

"I am set for the defense of the gospel" (Philippians 1:17)

"Strengthened with all might, according to His glorious
power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness..." (Colossians 1:11)

Fred, thanks for some perspective.

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I have not seen an overemphasis on Sonship in churches, but I am sure it is possible.

I HAVE seen an overemphasis on the nouthetic counseling in some churches. Neither if these teachings are abberrant but the poster above was correct in that anything that is stressed too much to the exclusion of other things is a danger. This is not a fault of Sonship however, but those who are doing the over-emphasizing. The church always has the tendency to chase fads.

Puritancovenanter: Jack Miller spoke of some Christians who have an orphan mentality. Of course, a Christian is never an orphan. The whole of Sonship is a focus on grace. We as Christians can try to live out our lives in our own strength and Sonship stresses that God's grace is our foundation in justification and sanctification. Because we tend to feel more like the children of God when all things are going well for us, Sonship emphasizes that we are God's children as beleivers also when we have our bad days. I.e. God will not leave us or forsake us (we are His Sons, after all).

That is Sonship's focus...certainly does not sound too devious, does it?

Also, remember that Sonship is the name of this grouping of studies by Jack Miller. It has realtion to, but is not totally the same as the doctrine of adoption in the ordo salutis. Jack Miller was not doing systematic theology; his focus was on how being in God's family affects us as we struggle through life. Thus, theological precision was not his emphasis.

Overall, there is nothing wrong with Sonship.

We who like it do NOT need an extra dose of John Owen.


Sonship is merely a practical and modern representation of the Biblical truths about our belonging in Christ. It is not Scripture and it is not the WCF. Jack Miller sometimes phrases things loosely but he is not a heretic or teaching bad doctrine. Everything therein is within the mainstream of sound teaching.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Dear Fred,

I suppose that what you say about tendencies in the preaching of some could be true, having a more limited perspective on the PCA than yourself, but I have not seen this myself in the New Life churches at which I have been in attendance. These churches have had a very edifying and grace centered preaching paradigm, but have not cut out (or even down on) their applications/imperatives. I'm not denying that what you say is true, I just have not observed it myself in these churches. Of course, all three of these churches had a very solid eldership, two of them with seminary faculty on them. I suppose that without that level of experience and wisdom, a church could run in the direction that you are saying.

I am in full agreement with you on the balance issue, and that otherwise proper reactions to an error can overshoot at least in the second generation of its proponents, if not in the first. However, I would say that if Reformed churches err on one side or the other, most often it is upon the side of legalism. That may just be my experience from within a particular denomination outside of the PCA, but I have seen it on occasion from within the PCA as well (although very much less so). It also seems to be a historical pattern in Reformed churches much more so than falling into antinomianism.

__________________
Adam J. Myer
Waiting on the September accessions board.
Evergreen PCA
Salem, Oregon

Fred and Adam,
Is Miller really saying that justification is a function of adoption? That goes beyond fuzzy language and lack of balance if he is. Can either of you shed some light on this, or is it addressed in the article mentioned at the beginning? Thanks!

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Justification is a function of adoption?


Heh, I have never reador heard this in any SOnship materials. If it is true, give me a quote.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Just asking.

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Sonship teaches a biblical view of justification.


Sonship is not a systematic theology book, but is an application of our identity in Christ as being a source of comfort in the trials of life. As we remember our place in God's family, we are less inclined to base our feelings on performance and can rest in our identity as sons.





A sidenote here: I have noticed that, especially for doctrinal dissertation papers, a favorite method is to find and sniff out insidious influences in otherwsie harmless and helpful teachings or modern presentations of the Gospel. In the name of discernment, we make boogeymen out of many good things. I remember not too long ago a brother wrote a dissertation focusing on errors in Jhn Piper's writing. Here too in this thread is a link to a doctoral dissertation claiming to see dreadful errors in Sonship. Differences in emphasis does not mean wholesale doctrinal defection,however. I think this is no more than young theologians tyring to test their chops and picking accepted teachings and "exposing" dreadful errors in these to prove their worth as theologians. These would-be theologians would do well to find better targets to flame.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

All theology is systematic theology. Even Biblical Theology is systematic theology. To figure out who "we" are and what "our identity" is, you are doing systematics. What you are doing is cramming your emotional state into a legalistic straitjacket. Call me snide, but I don't think it is healthy.

Our problem is not just "idolatry," but sin. Talking about "idolatry" in an introspective sense makes things confusing. For one thing, people who worship idols are pagans, not Christians.

So "our identity" is in the cross, resurrection and the promise of the Spirit at Pentecost. Justification is based on the imputed righteousness of Christ. The entire reformation unites on that point. Adoption flows out of that.

__________________
Chris Stamper
Park Cities PCA
(Dallas, TX)

I mostly agree with you. When we were taught a modified-Sonship study on Galatians, the fact of our justification was stressed. Here's one thing we were taught - maybe you can show me how this is legalistic.

We were told that in the parable of the Prodigal Son, both sons were trying to get away from the father: the one by leaving, and the other by staying and doing right, but both sons were lost, and the father sought the return of both of them. It was easier for the one who ran away to realize he needed to return. The one who stayed home and "slaved" for his father had a harder time returning.

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

CLSTAMPER: You can call Sonship many things; but legalistic does not fit.

Calvin called the heart an "idol factory" - even Christian constantly has to fight the tendency for the heart to create idols. Why don't you dispute his terminology, which Sonship uses.

Sonship is completely in agreement with WCF on justification.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Chris,

Would you unpack this for me, please:

__________________
Steve Rafalsky
Elder, International Evangelical Church (Reformed)
Limassol, Cyprus

"I am set for the defense of the gospel" (Philippians 1:17)

"Strengthened with all might, according to His glorious
power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness..." (Colossians 1:11)

I don't see where Scripture calls us to do that sort of emotional hand-wringing. Yet Sonship treats it as normal, so I raise the issue.

__________________
Chris Stamper
Park Cities PCA
(Dallas, TX)

CLSTAMPER:

Brother, I wish you would cut out the over-speak and deal with the issues.

Your hyperbole won't win many friends and it weakens your arguments.


Emotional handwringing....legalistic straightjackets..... COME ON! Have you even read the Sonship materials!


The Puritans wrote many high and lofty writings. Why don't you tell them to come back down to earth and get off of their clouds and stop their pious bubblings over?

The Christian life is emotional, and many people deal with many problems. A little introspection might do many of us a lot of good (for instance, looking into how our responses come across to others might be a nice start...)


Give me some specific ways in which you believe Sonship to be in error, and then proof it. Right now this thread is wasting my time.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Alright, guys, let's ALL mellow out a little. I would be interested in a response to the specific questions asked.

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

The Puritans wrote a lot of stuff, most of it out of print. In fact, vast quantities of material would be rejected by today's neo-puritan. This includes: the nature of the civil magistrate, political resistance, the nature of the church, opposition to clericalism, defense of the Lord's Day, opposition to sports, opposition to the prayer book, divine right of presbytery, natural law, and pointed criticism of Independents and baptists. Most "Reformed" people would reject all this outright, which is a good reason it says out of print.

Most Puritan writings reprinted to day are pastoral works that give a one-sided picture of how these people actually thought. So I don't think of them in the same way you do. As to Sonship itself, I don't know what I can say further that won't offend people.

__________________
Chris Stamper
Park Cities PCA
(Dallas, TX)

Yeah, that John Owen desperately wanted to be a Puritan, but he was too nice to Bunyan. Cromwell, too, had a chance at establishing that "divine right" but blew it.

Sorry, just had to point out that Puritans were not monolithic on these subjects. Now back to your regularly scheduled edifying thread. . . . .

__________________
R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Chris,
There are lots of people on this board who don't have one good thing to say about Sonship - they're probably avoiding this thread. I think your theology is correct - and if the Sonship people are really saying that justification is a component or result of adoption, they're wrong, not just in my opinion but in the opinion of the moderatiors and most members. I was hoping you could unpack what's legalistic about the example I cited.

I probably shouldn't have an opinion about this anyway.

Blessings,
Meg Thomas

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Sin is not a type of idolatry. Idolatry is a type of sin. The two words simply do not refer to the same thing.

I'll give you another example of Sonship sophistry from the WH mission statement:

"The gospel message we seek to proclaim is this: that the Kingdom of God has invaded this fallen and broken world and is driving back the forces of darkness"

What is this psychobabble about being "fallen and broken?" If that is our problem, we need drugs like wellbutrin and prozac. These are not religious matters. Do not pester your pastor about them.

Even as a Christian, I consider myself both justified and sinful. To call me "fallen and broken" is just plain rubbish. To use "fallen" in that sense makes human finitude to to be the problem. The term "broken" is undefinable; it means "I sometimes feel bad about myself."

Call me the chief of sinners. Call me a covenant breaker. Tell me my sins are like dirty rags. Just don't patronize me by telling me I'm "broken."

CL, I am not sure of what you are saying here -Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly,- This does not seem to be what Romans 6 says when Paul ask's this question:

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

It seems like you are saying YES,SIN BOLDLY THAT GRACE MAY ABOUND MORE!

In Romans 6 sins dominion has been broken, so Paul answers the question with
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


We are called to mortify sin.This requires us to seek God for the grace and strength to obey Him.
The objective truth of our justification,and our saving union with Christ does not excuse us from this reality of having our minds renewed and working out our salvation as He works in us,to will and to do of His good pleasure

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord

Maybe I am not understanding your posts,so perhaps you can clarify this for me.
You are not saying that if a person is living in habitual sin, he is saved anyway,are you?

You posted this also [ No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small?]
[/quote]

All sins of an elect person are paid for and cleansed, but if a person is not pursuing holiness and mortification of sin in the life, Hebrews says this in chapter 12

14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:


Let me know what I am not understanding in your posts, Thank you.

__________________
Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

CLSTAMPER:


So, let me get this straight:

You call the less than precise wording of us being "broken" in sin as absolute rubbish... but then you tell us to "sin boldly"

Ha, you are straining at gnats and condemning World Harvest, a good group, and then yourself advocating a position that could easily be misunderstood as advocating a light view of sin.



What is it about brokenness that is so objectionable? Due to the Fall we are sinners, we are imperfect and all we due is broken. Why make such a big deal about WH's use of "broken"?

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone