Referring to all who are not as yet saved, should we refer to them as heathen?
I do not think so but a friend thinks they should be referred to as that?

Any help? Quotes?

__________________
David
Stornoway Free Church (Continuing)
Isle of Lewis, Scotland

Because of its connotations and history, I do not think it is a helpful or useful term for referring to non Christians - especially if they are present. "Non-Christian" or "Unbeliever" seems just as direct and are less likely to offend - and why offend over something so silly? Better to cause offense with the gospel than with a poorly chosen word.

__________________
Kathleen M
nondenominational
Montana

I think it would depend on the context. The Scriptures refer to unconverted men as heathen so it is acceptable to do so. Our speech should be seasoned with salt as well so I would choose your context wisely.

__________________
John Lanier
Elder in Training
Reformed Baptist Church
Topeka, KS

Are you making an assumption there? The 'as yet' gives me a bit of a pause.

As for terminology, would you prefer 'apparent reprobate'?

__________________
Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

I don't.

Usually, in the context I've heard it, it refers to savage unevangelized societies or one who acts like they come from said civilization (e.g., "the little heathens next door" [or downstairs! ]). I personally think this usage is derogatory. However as a general adjective for all unsaved, it's technically okay(though the connotation it conveys is frequently undesirable).

__________________
Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio

Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation:

The as yet just simply means that we do not know who will or won't be saved.

David,

Those outside of God's people are to be thought of as heathens or publicans. Jesus used these two derogatory terms to describe people who are judicially excluded from the fellowship of the Church. His usage of this term secures its propriety.

I think it is not a fitting distinction to say that we should offend people with the gospel, but not with terms like heathen. The offense of the gospel resides in part in the terrors of the law for those outside of Christ, and calling someone a heathen is part of the legal distinction Christ makes between the visible Church and those outside the visible Church.

If used in a spirit of self-righteousness, it is a sinful abuse of a perfectly good term. However, if used merely as a judicial description, it may be helpful in introducing the topic of the gospel into a conversation.

Cheers,

__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

I have never once heard this term used without a spirit or tone of self-righteousness - which is part of why I object to its use.

Should we? Not always. May we? Sometimes may be appropriate.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Is it perhaps that you have a bad image of the word itself, which is a grid through which you hear the term? In addition, the abuse of a word should not illegitimize the word itself, but should give us caution in its use, which I think is what you're getting at.

Cheers,

I'd agree...but I'm not for changing the words to "Arm of the Lord, awake, awake" or "Jesus, with Thy church abide" anytime soon So it makes me inconsistent, I guess.

I prefer "lost rebel sinner in need of the light of Christ"

__________________
MarieP
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, KY

"I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies and of all the truth which You have shown Your servant" (Gen. 32:10)

Thanks. I was reading into an assumption, based on the 'yet' that they would be regenerated later. As long as it's understood that the may not be of the elect, I'll withdraw my statement of concern.

As for heathen, it is a Biblical term.

Yes.

__________________
Toni Cunningham, Wife of Bill (Theognome)
Parkwoods OPC, Overland Park KS

"Vice is a monster of so frightful mien, As, to be hated, needs but to be seen; Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace." ~ Alexander Pope

To clarify - I'm not saying that it must never be used. It makes a lot of sense, as you point out, in historical hymns etc. I object to its use in present day conversation to refer to present day unbelievers. I don't think we can ignore the connotations that surround the word - connotations that are fairly new but nonetheless are quite strong. And as I said - I have never once heard the word used by a present day person without a tone of self-righteousness. Even if the person does not mean to be self righteous, the word itself carries a connotation of self-righteousness. I just don't see the advantage over "unbeliever" or even "unregenerate."

I do it in research writing.

Edwards talks about this (I think it's Edwards), how increasing numbers of ministers were refraining from using this exact word for fear of offense. Should be inside Noll's book.

I'm in school now, will check when I get home.

__________________
Ewen
1689 LBCF
Assemblies of God Bible College
Singapore

Pagan:

Main Entry: heathen
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heathens or heathen
Date: before 12th century

1 : an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible
2 : an uncivilized or irreligious person

— hea·then·dom \-dəm\ noun

— hea·then·ism \-thə-ˌni-zəm\ noun

— hea·then·ize \-thə-ˌnīz\ transitive verb


So I would say that it may be accurate at times.

__________________
Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

They haven't blocked the PB on your school's network?

-----Added 10/20/2009 at 08:25:09 EST-----

The definition, yes, but in English class I learned that a word has a definition and a connotation. I think the connotation is what causes the problem here.

This certainly made me smile this morning. No, we don't have any filters on the school network. But I suspect some students peep into PB from time to time, probably because someone leaves open the PB page on the library computers. I wonder who would do that?

That said, there is a marked increase of interest in calvinism within students here. I know some who are at least 4 pointers but there are a myriad of factors preventing them from embracing the entirety of Reformed thought. It's almost (if I dare make the comparison) like "coming out." Not a reflection on Reformed theology but rather the culture surrounding it here.

Thank you everyone for your comments, I always feel better after running stuff by you guys.

What dictionary was that taken from btw?

The trouble with shying away from a word because of its connotations - even though usually done with the best of motives - is that in no time at all that word becomes universally unacceptable. Then you have to substitute another, but inevitably that too will sooner or later collect some negative connotations, and so it goes on...

__________________
JennyG
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Fife, Scotland

I agree, Jenny. That has been the case throughout the history of the Church. No offense intended toward David who started the thread or to anyone else, but I think if people have a problem with the word "heathen" they have a problem with Biblical doctrine. Because that's what we were before Christ saved us. Heathen. That's how the Bible (God's, holy, perfect, errorless, inspired Word) refers to the unsaved, period. What should we call them? "Unenlightened?" or as Bill Hybells calls them, "In spiritual process?" lol It's the same thing with wanting to take the word, "wretch" out of Amazing Grace. This is how Unitarian Universalism began. People were ashamed of the clear teachings of the Holy Scriptures and wanted to be nicer, kinder and more compassionate than Jesus Christ.

The thing is, having looked at the original, the same greek word "ethnos" that is used lots of times in the new testament as gentiles is in 5 places changed to heathen. Why the change? The other 2 uses of heathen were by Jesus and the word was slightly different "ethnikos" Again, can anyone help with why words are translated this way and then the difference between heathen and gentiles because the translators obviously thought there was one.

Thanks again guys, hope that made sense.

David,

The term ethnos primarily refers to the nations as nations, but was used as a derrogatory term by the Jews for non-Jews (the Hebrew is Goyim). Depending upon the context, the word is appropriately translated with the shades of meaning used in the first century as either nations, a person from one of those nations (Gentile, or heathen man), or as a godless person outside of God's Church ("as a heathen man or a publican").

Cheers,

I like Heath Bars....

__________________
~ Charles Stephen Barribeau ~
Christ Presbyterian Church , OPC (They sing alot of Psalms!)
Original Westminster Standards (I need to study more...)
The Puritans were best! Also... I NEED TO READ MORE!!!
Philipians1:29(KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Janesville, Wisconsin (In the fellowship of Bob Vigneault and Matt+Megan Meisberger)

I agree with you both. It's not as if we're calling anyone a reprobate by using the term either.

Furthermore, we as Christians ought to be nonconformists, including in our manner of speaking. But how often are we following the world (including the Major Media, Hollywood, etc)? How often do they dictate the positions we take on what's appropriate to say?

May God give us the strength and wisdom to go against the mood of these times.

__________________
Soli Deo Gloria,
Jeff - FCC - Georgia


"Every word of God is pure" — Proverbs 30:5

"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it." — Patrick Henry, A.D. 1775

Works of Jonathan Edwards, Vol. 1, under Observations on Romans 6, 196.

See here.

Mine wasn't much more than a practical point really,- it was Knoxienne who drew out the more serious Biblical implications. I agree all the way though. Such things are insidious, and because each individual step is so apparently trivial, can be harder to fight than a great open assault on faith.
Amen, and amen.

All the more reason not to live with one foot in the world.

Actually had this come up on another message board that I frequented because I was a part of their gaming guild. I was not a believer at the time, but I had recently "got saved", but "backslid" a few months later.

Anyway, there was/is one believer on the board (he's a former Roman Catholic but now sadly enough I see he subscribes to the Calvary Chapel nonsense) who was and is actually pretty able and adept to give a defense of Christianity against the numerous atheists and agnostics on the board. (Mostly lots of Canadians and Scandinavians who were all atheists.) He was in some debate and someone took offense to the word heathen. To my surprise, other nonbelievers chastised the one who took offense, citing that they were in fact heathens because they didn't believe.

The term is factually correct to use, but perhaps has picked up a derogatory connotation that detracts from the larger conversation. The term itself seems to be used in a knee-jerk manner by a lot, which is one reason why I think it has such a negative connotation.

__________________
Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

I think at times, it is us Christians who are just too afraid of offending people that it becomes ridiculous.

As long as you're being polite about it. "Yes, I bought the sosaties from the heathen gentleman right over there".

__________________
Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California