Yes, our forgiveness should be contingent on God's forgiving us. If a person doesn't repent then his problem is with God. God will judge the unrepentant.
Matt. 6:12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
Rom 12:Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
__________________
Bob Vigneault (Bawb Vēēn-yo)
"We are God's children and He's the Father of all fathers and we need to obey him." Jean-Baptiste Vigneault (5)
Yes, our forgiveness should be contingent on God's forgiving us. If a person doesn't repent then his problem is with God. God will judge the unrepentant.
Matt. 6:12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
Rom 12:Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
But isn't God's forgiveness of us contingent upon our repentance? Therefore if our forgiveness is to be like God's perhaps we should only forgive the repentant.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just playing "devil's advocate" because that's the thought that came into my mind when you said that our forgiveness is contingent upon God's.
P1 God's forgiveness is our model
P2 God only forgives the repentant (that's why he forgave us)
C We should only forgive the repentant
???
__________________
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But isn't God's forgiveness of us contingent upon our repentance? Therefore if our forgiveness is to be like God's perhaps we should only forgive the repentant.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just playing "devil's advocate" because that's the thought that came into my mind when you said that our forgiveness is contingent upon God's.
P1 God's forgiveness is our model
P2 God only forgives the repentant (that's why he forgave us)
C We should only forgive the repentant
???
Don't know if what I was taught wrong, but I thought we should always be willing to forgive others, but if others sin against us and do not repent we do not have the obligation to forgive them, until they repent.
__________________ Nikki Edmond
Berean Christian Assembly (Reformed Baptist)
Tucson, AZ HaveATulip Chat Room for Reformed Believers Principle and Practice Blog Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Last edited by Simply_Nikki; 03-22-2007 at 06:46 PM..
Reason: typo
It may depend on what one means by "forgive." If by "forgive" you mean that the person is entitled to the same privileges they had before the offense, the I don't think anyone would say that we should forgive the unrepentant. This would do away with church discipline altogether. Also, I may be able to "let go of my anger" toward a person who has wronged me, but if they don't repentant I wouldn't want to be friends with them anymore.
God grants repentance, he doesn't reward it. God demonstrates his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
From the cross Christ prayed, 'forgive them, they know not what they are doing'.
We are not God. If someone slaps us on the cheek, we offer the other. If someone demands our jacket, we give them our shirt. We are to pray for our enemies. These things all go against the norm. We love because he first loved us, we forgive because he first forgave us. These are the marks of a Christian.
I will go along with the sentiment that we are to forgive only those who repent if you can show me the scripture. I already know what the popular teaching is. I'm not being argumentative, I just want to see the scripture that validates the easy way.
God grants repentance, he doesn't reward it. God demonstrates his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
But no one is saying that repentance is a meritorious work. We're just saying that it's a necessary one. Of course God's forgiveness of our sin isn't a reward for our repentance, but without repentance God will not forgive us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobVigneault
I will go along with the sentiment that we are to forgive only those who repent if you can show me the scripture. I already know what the popular teaching is. I'm not being argumentative, I just want to see the scripture that validates the easy way.
Jesus set the example as he prayed from the cross, Stephen followed that example in Acts 7:59
Quote:
And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Stephen was not looking at an OPTION to forgive he was carrying out the command to forgive.
Forgiveness or our neighbor (image of God) is a CHOICE based on God's forgiveness of his elect. There is no need for a qualifier.
David, the Luke 17 passage is an excellent verse to bolster the argument for making forgiveness contingent on repentance. That's the one I would use. But now you must balance it against Mark 11:25
Quote:
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”
Is Jesus split? Either scripture is contradicting here or there are two different kinds of forgiveness. So where do you go now?
Is Jesus split? Either scripture is contradicting here or there are two different kinds of forgiveness. So where do you go now?
I suppose I would want to know what it really means to forgive someone. Earlier I said this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
It may depend on what one means by "forgive." If by "forgive" you mean that the person is entitled to the same privileges they had before the offense, the I don't think anyone would say that we should forgive the unrepentant. This would do away with church discipline altogether. Also, I may be able to "let go of my anger" toward a person who has wronged me, but if they don't repent I wouldn't want to be friends with them anymore.
Can we distinguish two kinds of forgiveness? This came into my mind again when you quoted Christ on the Cross. When Christ asked the Father to forgive all the people there, it obviously doesn't mean "forgive" in the first sense I mentioned, because not everyone about whom he was speaking (as far as I know) was forgiven of their sins and granted eternal life. I can forgive people for doing cruel things to me in one sense, that is, I can stop holding a grudge against them. But I'm not going to let someone who sins against me without repentance be someone to whom I entrust myself in any real way. And this is how it is ultimately between God and unrepentant sinners. That's why I was wondering if it's possible to speak about forgiveness in the context of actual reconciliation as well as within the context of letting go of any personal grudge a person may hold. So in Luke 17, when the person repents of his sin, we are supposed to remain in fellowship with them. This would be the same in situations of church discipline. However, if we were to forgive people in the fullest sense of the word who are unrepentant, wouldn't that undermine church discipline and our duty to "shun the immoral brother" as well as stay away from dangerous characters in general?
I think you've hit the answer square David. The one forgiveness (Mark), in which we release the penalty and responsibility to God, saves us from our own anger. This would hurt the fellowship of the body.
Meanwhile the other forgiveness (Luke) brings real reconciliation between members of the body. So this poll is really dependent on which forgiveness we are speaking of. I answered 'yes' based on Mark 11, those who answer 'no' are thinking of Luke 17.
This is why I love this board. Working together we always come away from scripture having gained so much more than we would have on our own.
The one forgiveness (Mark), in which we release the penalty and responsibility to God, saves us from our own anger. This would hurt the fellowship of the body.
Meanwhile the other forgiveness (Luke) brings real reconciliation between members of the body. So this poll is really dependent on which forgiveness we are speaking of. I answered 'yes' based on Mark 11, those who answer 'no' are thinking of Luke 17.
This is why I love this board. Working together we always come away from scripture having gained so much more than we would have on our own.
Yes, we should forgive, even IF they are unrepentant...
I would refer to Matthew 6:14-15
"And if ye forgive men their trespasses, Your heavenly Father will also forgive you; BUT IF ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive Your trespasses."
I think there is a misconception people have concerning forgiveness and reconcilation, thinking they are the same thing, but they aren't...they are two very different things.
I can forgive someone who has hurt me, and yet set boundaries on the type of relationship I have with them if they refuse to repent.
Reconciliation should ONLY happen when both parties agree (confess) to the wrongs committed--and turn away from those behaviors.
Even looking at God's forgiveness, He forgives, yet, there isn't reconcilitation UNTIL the person confesses (agrees with God about His sin), and repents. Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"
So God forgave, even though they didn't understand what they did wrong, but even then the reconciliation didn't happen, UNTIL they/we confessed and repented.
__________________
Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg
When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3
Are these passages really dealing with people who are not repentant? Or are they dealing with people who are repentant and the point being made is 'dont hold a grudge'?
"When I cease to preach salvation by faith in Jesus, put me into a lunatic asylum, for you may be sure that my mind is gone." - Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892)
[cricket noises in background]Goodnight...[/cricket noises in background]
__________________ The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873 Meg Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR
Are these passages really dealing with people who are not repentant? Or are they dealing with people who are repentant and the point being made is 'dont hold a grudge'?
Considering they come right after the Lords Prayer, I would say it doesn't matter.
WE as Christians are to forgive, even if the other person isn't repentant.
Isn't that loving our neighbor as you love ourself? And doing unto others as we would want them to do to us?
Is there sin against us, greater than their sin against God?
Are we not supposed to be examples of Christ's love of forgiveness?
Forgiving even when someone doesn't deserve to be forgiven because they haven't repented?
Do WE deserve to be forgiven by God for our sins against Him?
No, but yet He forgives, even if we don't acknowledge our sinfulness...the difference is, there is no reconciliation until we acknowledge our sinfullness.
good night! 
