I am heavily involved in our church's Urban Ministry, usually in the form of Jobs For Life (teaching the gospel and job skills, in that order, to folks who need both), as well as various community health fairs, free dental clinics, etc.

In a few weeks, we are participating with other local churches in something called "Hope for Durham," and our church will be cleaning and painting a local public school in a very poor area. I am very conflicted about this. Actually, I'm not at all and I don't want to have anything to do with it. Am I wrong?

I find it terribly ironic that the Church in this area, including mine, is working on a project called "Hope for Durham" by aiding an institution purposefully set out to deny the gospel, and undo what a good Christian home would instill. This particular school has posters and other "inspirational" material lining the hallways that indoctrinates its impoverished subjects (not students) with everything from postmodern all-consuming tolerance, to blaming "The Man," to global warming.

I do not want to go and help them in any way. Not even to clean their sidewalks or paint their walls. I want that school to fall to the ground in ruins, and not get a makeover courtesy of the people it's working against.

It will be noticed if I do not participate or sign up, and I will be asked why. I do not want to lie, and telling the truth will be highly insulting to my church leadership (as I'm suggesting they are in the wrong for participating in this).

How can I humbly, truthfully, and peacefully get through this and ensure that my elders in this ministry understand how much I still love and respect them? This will be an issue where division and disagreement will likely be seen as hostile, and will be very hard for them to take well. What can I do?

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Jeremy Gage
First Baptist Church
Durham, NC

"No heart can conceive that treasury of mercies which lies in this one privilege, in having liberty and ability to approach unto God at all times, according to his mind and will." - John Owen

What option would you offer the Public School parents to their only academic option in this very poor area? Will you work to give their kids scholarships at Christian schools? Will you bring in educators to give them a God centered education?

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This seems like a separate issue. I would love to do that. I have discussed it with the elders, and we have not moved forward in any way on it. But I would think that just because there are few other options is not a reason to support this institution. There are a few 'black' churches in the area that do have schools with extensive scholarship programs. There is a choice in this area, but we have not done anything to expand that choice.

The first step to doing good in an area is to stop supporting evil in it.

I wouldn't go. No way.

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Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

Given my position as a young guy in this ministry, and the sensitivity of the issue, would you explain your reasons when asked why you're not participating? Would you believe it to be worth causing the stir?

Or should I find some way to be honest, and yet let the whole thing pass peacefully?

It would be no small thing to explain my reasoning, which would involve a conviction that doing this is sin.

Hmmmm....seems like an opportunity missed. You miss this one then you have to miss any opportunity to help the heathen anywhere else. Would you not help your atheist neighbor? Maybe take some literature to hand out (slip into lockers etc)...get inventive. They've got the children....let's get them back.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

I would gladly help my atheist neighbor mow his lawn, clean his garage, or find him a doctor when he needs one. But I would not help him repaint the walls to host his "Why God Stinks" convention. Cleaning this public school is analogous to the latter, in my mind. This building has a purpose, and so do the people who run it. By helping this school look better, in some small way I would be strengthening its hold on the community, and the esteem given to it by them. And I just can't do that.

The outside of the building needs to match the inside: bankrupt.

Jeremy, can you point these things out to your leadership in a loving fashion? Sometimes that's hard, I know, and sometimes no matter how loving you try to present it, it will be taken as insult. But if you can prayerfully make your case to them in love, they will either hear and be blessed and you can all make a stand in the community, or they will reject it but you can excuse yourself on the basis of conscience and you will have made a stand without engendering strife. Its a narrow channel to navigate, but it can be done.

Humility without anger or indignation would be the best route.

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Brad
Member- Eagle Heights PCA
Winchester, VA

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

One way is to do this thing you do not want to do. Ask God for grace to do it and specifically to use it for a real, tangible witness there and that He will give you the pleasure to see that happen.

There are likely some Christian children and parents connected with that school but one aspect of our calling is to help the poor without regard, doing it only as unto the Lord, and for His sake.

(And it wouldn't hurt also to pray for godly people on your school board- that they might influence the kind of materials used there)

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

One of our persecuted brothers cleans his guards' toilets with a cheerful heart even though the prison is used to torture and kill God's servants and tell them that "God is dead". He says his spiritual reward is showing God's love and Glorying God and his earthly reward is getting the bible pages out of the trash that the guards use to wipe with. He is able to read them after washing them. Just giving a different perspective than that of Americans.

I don't see this as a wise use of time. If you are going to be engaged in something for your community, 1001 things are more strategic and a better stewardship.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

But this is an opportunity to influence children and it's standing right there before him...he doesn't have to go looking for another when one is being presented.

Set your agenda....to spread the Gospel as effectively as possible while you're there. If they catch you doing it and throw you out....well, you've done exactly what others are doing right now in every single place they can get a foot hold in. No place should be off limits to the Gospel.

This is an incredible act. But I do not think a comparison works with this. By cleaning the toilet, he is not furthering the mission of the evil prison. People are not enticed by it, think it's ok, and go there by choice. But that is the case with this public school.

Cleaning the prison does not help it commit more evil. Cleaning the school does.

Scott, in order to ask God for grace to go through with this even if I don't want to would require me to believe it's not sin. As long as I believe it's sin, I can't really ask God for grace to help me get out there and do it anyway.

I have an objection to a premise of yours - that this helps poor people. This whole ministry I am a part of exists to help poor people indiscriminately with health issues, job issues, etc. while teaching the gospel.

I love to do those things "without regard," and for His sake, as you say. But I think helping this school is a bad thing that hurts the poor, and to help the school is to perpetuate a system that rejects the gospel and hurts the subjects who enter its doors.

There are Christians from my church who teach there. And they do their best to counteract what influence the rest of the teachers give. But the school is rotten, root and branch, and any child who escapes it with a sound mind intact is the recipient of a miracle from God.

As it's summer, there will be no children present, and there will only be a few representatives from the school supervising the work of my fellow members. Even if they were there, we have knocked on every door in this zip code multiple times offering the gospel and physical aid, so it is not as though going through this public school gains us access to anyone new.

[quote=smhbbag;639747]This brother would do this for any building if he felt he could spread the Gospel by doing an earthly service. Like I said above. Take this opportunity into your own hands. They want you to work for them. Instead, work for Christ. Go there with your set agenda of spreading the Gospel in the most effective way possible. Yeah, you might be painting a few walls but that doesn't keep the walls in place. You're not promoting their agenda because you're armed with the Gospel. My suggestion is to go there and spread the Gospel until you get thrown out....you've done your job of spreading the Gospel and you've suffered for Christ in a small way....sounds biblical to me.

Are you are not overstating their reaction Jeremy? I think if you are asked and you state it violates your conscience to do so then by all means they should respect that especially as there is so much diversity of opinion these days on homeschooling vs public schools. If they don't respect your desire to uphold your convictions and not violate your conscience than there is an issue with their Leadership. I wouldn't hold the same conviction on this as you however I respect your position and encourage you to do that which you feel is honorable.

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Wayne Whitmer
Member, Rio Rancho OPC
Albuquerque, NM

Wwjd?

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Doug
Baptist
Hemet, Ca
Old Time Radio Podcast

Would everybody be exhorting Jeremy to do this if it were a Muslim madrassa? A Cambodian re-education camp? How 'bout a Christian Identity white supremacist summer camp for kids? Or even more appropriate, repaint a temple of Molech, where children are passed through the fire?

Not much difference between them all and a public school. They are all places where the Lord is despised and the devil is hard at work trying to keep children from the truth and lead them down the path to destruction.

Public schools just do it in a more subtle fashion, so they are a little easier to swallow. Which makes them even more devious.

-----Added 6/21/2009 at 10:42:26 EST-----

I seriously doubt that Jesus would have encouraged the disciples to go help the Romans maintain a facility wherein they forcefully took Jewish children to convince them that the faith of their fathers was false and to hold to pagan beliefs and practices.

Yes I would if he could spread the Gospel while doing it. Why do we think that painting the walls of the heathens' buildings is going to help them further their cause? God allows them to further their cause if He wants it furthered. He hasn't called us to destroy their cause by staying away from them but by spreading the Gospel to change their hearts and thus change their cause.

Hmm, someone says carry a mile, carry two. Someone says give your cloak give him your coat, something to that effect

In our limited time and energy in life we must not let "the good" by the enemy of "the best" and we must strive to be the best stewards that we can be of our time. Painting a public school when the kids will not even be there might not be the best use of time, unless time is a commodity that you have a lot of.

-----Added 6/21/2009 at 10:48:34 EST-----

If you DO have a whole lot of time to spend, I can email a list of many things for you to do for the kingdom that would take higher prioritization and would involve direct evangelism.

I think I would love to see that list, Pergs.

-----Added 6/21/2009 at 10:52:46 EST-----

He didn't seem to look very approvingly on Solomon allowing his pagan wife to build a temple to her god in Jerusalem. Or the 'help' the Israelites gave in building ashteroths.

Was he spreading the Gospel and controlling the situation to further God's agenda or was he letting his wives control things there? If smhbbag were going to just paint the school and do no Gospel spreading, then I would tell him to stay away. Why do we get to pick the places where we want to spread the Gospel? If you can find a Bible verse which tells us not to spread the Gospel in all places and only in certain places, then I will admit my wrongness.

Perg, I really do appreciate what you do for Christ and how you lay down your life for those in the country in which you live. You, brother, do more than I do!!! But we do have to have some people here in America spreading the Gospel too. We all can't leave this land to go else where. We can't pick our place where we want to spread the Gospel we have to take advantage of every opportunities God gives to us.

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____________________________

~Beth Ellen Nagle~
Lakeside Church -Wales, WI (PCA)
Married to John
One wonderful daughter, Chaela Joelle


My work in digital art and photography: http://www.puritanboard.com/members/...ms-images.html

With no kids there, and probably only some poor facilities guy present, I doubt this is a grand opportunity for gospel presentation. Instead it is just helping 'pretty up' the local temple to Molech. And if the aim is to paint, then painting is what ought to be done, not gab. That would produce a very unglorifying witness - lazy Christians wanting to chit-chat rather than perform the work they came to do, and doing so until the point of being thrown out as you suggest.

I think the idea is that the painting itself will be a witness to the school. But none of the students will ever know that, and very few of the staff,so what's the point?

I'm sure Solomon thought he was being kind in allowing the false god's temple to be built. Motives must be checked against the word of God before being categorized as good.

This may be a reason for discretion rather than answers. If your leadership asks why you choose not to participate, you could respond "I'd rather not say" and leave it at that.

If they press the issue, then you are not being disrespectful or divisive if your answer is direct and truthful.

Of course if you go privately and ask respectfully why they feel it is worthwhile to support that school, they might instruct you in what might be a weakness in your understanding.

So from my understanding, the options are essentially two: either humbly ask how they will deal with the support of what you see as teaching against the Church, or decline to answer.

I personally would think that if you really respect the leadership in your church, you would choose to give them voice to their understanding of the issues and why they would support the school.

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Brian Withnell
Deacon, OPC
Leesburg, Virginia

You cannot train for war in the midst of a battle. Prepare before the battle starts; if the battle is long and hard, you will wish you had.

Sarah, exactly what are the witnessing opportunities there? Leaving tracts behind? It sounds like no one will be there.

That's why I told him to be creative. I've slipped pieces of paper into lockers before it can be done. (We shouldn't assume they won't have kids there to help tho. Many times they do just to get them involved) Something with the clear message of the law and grace on it would be spreading the Gospel. He could give them a place they could go for more answers on that piece of paper...like his church's phone number/address etc. Instead of going to paint that school and have that opportunity, is he going to go somewhere else and spread the Gospel? Not saying that he has to, but I'm saying the opportunity is standing before him in this situation. It's important that we spread the Gospel to children especially. They try to get our kids when they are young...so do the communists. They know how important it is and we should too. Anyway, he was asking so I said my piece.

And if frogs had wings...

I give up too, Brad. I'm probably the last person who should be giving advise right now. Peace.

That is quite a statement. I work in a public school, and while all of what you say is also there, there are also things that are supporting the cause of Christ. There is a chapter of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, there is a Christian group that meets for prayer every week (there is also a Muslim student group, but it is not any more supported than the Christian group), there are teachers that are a light in a dark place that will talk with students when they ask questions. The purpose of most public schools is not as dark as what you might think. In a sense, it is dark, as it purposely does separate teaching of all subjects from "taking every thought captive to Christ" (which is why I home school my own children). Yet I fully recognize that is not an option for all parents.

I have been blessed in many ways, and I have always been able to provide a Christian education for my children, yet I know with a slight turn of events, I might not have had that ability. When my first wife died, I had a large income (I was working in software engineering) and I was able to have the children go to a private Christian school. If I had not been so well off financially, I would have had to send the children to public school. So while I want a Christian education for my children, I can see that some might not be able to accomplish that. A widow(er) might not have that choice. So if there are Christians going to that school, are you ministering to them by helping the school?

I only say this to raise a possibility that perhaps the school which you are so against might not be so single minded. I know if I were teaching there, it certainly would not be single minded.

Wow@the OP...

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~Gloria G.~
Bride of Warren G.
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church, PCA, Southeast Georgia

"Turn my eyes from looking at worthless things; and give me life in your ways." Psalm 119:37

Depending on the size of the school (you say its in an urban area so I'm assuming that its larger), its statistically probable that Christian children attend it. Even if there are not Christians there, are we not supposed to minister to the heathen? I think that providing a cleaner and freshly painted school counts as ministering. Just my

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Kathleen M
nondenominational
Montana

I do not believe the last sentence is true. There is always a way. I do not believe it is within Christian liberty to have a child's mind formed by an unbelieving system 8-10 hours per day, regardless of the possibility that there might be a few genuinely Christian teachers and activities trying (unsuccessfully) to stem the tide.

If my premise is correct, that it is a Christian's obligation not to put children under the instruction of ungodly systems, then by definition there are options. God has given us everything we need for life and godliness, and He will always provide means for the believer to obey Him. It might be desperate and hard, but it is there.

If there were no options for my children where I am - say if I were a widower with a church who won't help, and no churches or schools in the area would help regardless of my desperation (this is unlikely), then there is still a means. Pick up a phone and dial every acceptable church, school, or homeschool group in the city, county, state, country or world until someone says "Yes, I will help you." And then beg, borrow, plead, and work like the dickens to get there and receive that help.

There is always a way.

I would not be ministering to the Christian students by helping the school. I would be helping the system that wishes to distort their minds in the name of pluralism, tolerance, self-esteem, etc. By making their education at the feet of unbelievers more comfortable and more attractive, I only serve to mask its moral bankruptcy behind a better-kept building.

The danger of the public school system comes in its subtlety. It is not possible to sit in that environment for 12 years and not have little devilish worms burrow their way into the mind unnoticed. True, many of the symptoms and problems they would cause might be "minor," and not shipwreck a faith. But they are evil nonetheless. I am not advocating withdrawal from the world or any form of extreme separatism. I really only have a very simple principle that Christian children ought to be taught by Christian adults, according to a believing worldview. I fail to see how this is radical.

I agree that the vast, vast majority of teachers and administrators have no intentional plan to rip our children from the teachings of Scripture. Their influence does not have to be intentional to be real.

I respectfully disagree with your premise. If what you are saying is true, then every parent that sends their children to public school ought to be brought up on charges within their church, even if the church cannot provide the education to the children. Your premise being wrong means all that follows is irrelevant.

To say that God in his providence does not put people into positions which are impossible to have their children given a Godly education would mean that those people that were deported to Babylon by force were there only because the parents did not find a way to comply with your principle. I don't buy it.

I can certainly see that if a person has a choice, they should exercise that choice to educate their children in Christian schools, or through home schooling. But saying that there is always a way seems presumptive.

It does not necessarily mean they ought to be brought up on charges. That simply does not follow. The church can declare it to be sin, and counsel its members to avoid it, and yet still be consistent in exercising wisdom, restraint, and patience with believers who do not yet agree with the church's teaching.

This also does not follow.

Although I did not allow for it before (because it is irrelevant in America and most countries), it should be obvious that if someone is prevented, by force, from educating their children properly they are not in sin. Just as the man in solitary confinement for preaching is not in sin for being absent from church. He is also not in sin for not being there instruct his children.

The burden of proof is on your side to show that, Biblically, it is acceptable for a parent to voluntarily (as in, not by force) put their children under the instruction of unbelievers during the formative years of their lives.

My example is plain: regardless of your poverty or desperation, there most certainly is a way for a Christian in the United States to have a child taught by believers. Someone, somewhere will say yes to helping them. And there is a way to get there and take advantage of that love. And that is not presumptive.

Sorry, no. You are the one making a positive assertion that something is a sin when there is no specific command that forbids it. You are the one saying that the Word forbids allowing people other than Christians to educate a child, and you have not demonstrated that explicitly or from necessary consequence of what is in scripture.

Before you can claim that something is sin, you have to prove the subject is prescribed in scripture. Your assertion that it is sin makes your claim to fall under "matters of faith". Therefore it is up to you to prove that your assertion is true ... it is not up to anyone to prove that what you are saying is false if you have not first proven it true. You haven't.

I haven't read through all the posts yet, but one thing just hit me. Don't we engage with non-Christians organizations all the time? Yet does it mean we are supporting the spread of the heathen gospel of hedonism. I mean painting a school, I think, falls way to the bottom of the list of something that constitutes support when compared with giving money to an organization or company who's owner(s) believes in tolerance and hedonism. Anyone use windows? or any microsoft software? Bill Gates does support "Gay Rights" and spreads his message of tolerance around the globe, does that mean you are supporting his cause by patronizing his products? I don't think so...

But if you have the conviction to not have anything to do with an organization or company pertaining to the world, then... I certainly as a sister wouldn't ask one to participate in it. But I must say one's options will be severely limited.

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Nikki Edmond
Desert Springs Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Tucson, AZ
Principle and Practice Blog
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Brad, I believe your examples are excellent and make good sense to me. Jesus didn't help the money changers set up their tables outside the temple did he?

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Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

The scriptures are too numerous to mention, and frankly I'm shocked it's being questioned. Every mention of rearing a child in a household of faith, raising a child in the way he ought to go, to bring up little ones where Scripture permeates their entire environment - on doorposts and foreheads.

It is objective, plain truth that 8-10 hours a day for 12 years in a place that forms young minds according to the worldview of unbelief cannot, in any way, be reconciled with the commands to love, protect, teach and disciple one's children. If someone is incapable of fending for themselves, why would we send them to lions, wolves, and devils...as kind and non-threatening as they may appear? Many are blessed and preserved by God despite their worldly education, and I praise Him for that.

For a short list:

Lev. 18:21
Deut 4:9-10, 25
Deut 6:1-10
Deut 11:19-21
Deut 31:12,13
Deut 32:46
Ezra 9:11-13
Psalm 34:10-11
Psalm 78:4-6
Lamentations 1:5
Matthew 7:10-12
Mark 9:42.

And I'm stopping because it's bedtime.

We are commanded to surround our children's lives and minds with the words of the Lord, with His great deeds, and protect them from those who would cause them to sin.

There is no question that an unbelieving (or worse, believing!) teacher at a public school giving a lecture applauding self-esteem, tolerance, evolution, naturalism, etc. is enticing little ones to sin. And they are sowing doubt about the greatness of our God. And the peers around them exert every possible influence toward carnality, greed and immaturity.

It is on you to show that putting a child in an environment of unbelieving, immoral peers, under the instruction of unbelieving or misguided teachers, working from an openly-advertised unbelieving worldview is somehow consistent with the commands to love, protect, and teach our children.

The command to teach our children about God, and model obedience in faith for them is violated by giving them over to people who do the exact opposite for the majority of time a child is awake.

Can you imagine this conversation?

Israelite: So, Moses, God tells me to instruct my son thoroughly in the Law, to love and protect him, and train him in the way they should go, right?

Moses: Yep.

Israelite: Awesome. I think I'll do that by giving the majority of his young life over to the instruction of unbelievers, and have most of his surroundings pillars of immorality. But I'll do a lot of devotions at home. Sound good?

Moses: Looks good to me.

I don't see the difference in service whether its a public school or any other community outreach. There will always be an element of worldliness when reaching out to the community. I wonder if you look at every public library or courthouse or park and think the same thing? Yet, these places are arguably just as heathen! The church is not going there to help promote a school agenda, they are going to serve the Lord by helping them paint! We are called to live in the world, to be lights, to minister to others, and to glorify God both in word and deed. We were created for good works....regardless of whether the children are there or not, or whether anyone even recognizes the work that the church has done!

As believers, we are to do all things as unto the Lord, pleasing in His sight and for His glory! So we work not unto men, but unto the Lord! Inadvertently, we promote heathens all the time......the cars we drive, the clothes we buy, the places we eat, even the toothpaste we use....all major contributors to "heathen" causes of one variety or another! If we take these issues too far, we'd be better off living as the Amish sustaining ourselves so as to prevent any promotion of heathen causes. But, I for one, think the Lord made us not to divide ourselves so severely from the world that we should live in christian communes...but that we would be morally separate from the world! That we should still be in and yet not of this world.....that we might serve Him and glorify His name!

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Yvonne
Reformed Presbyterian
Currently seeking a Church

"A man's most glorious actions will at last be found to be but glorious sins, if he hath made himself, and not the glory of God, the end of those actions." -T. Brooks