The thread on "Firebrand Preaching mp3s" in the computer section made me think about a quote in a Paul Washer sermon. He mentioned in a sermon that we as believers should not have "secular moments", not ever.

Especially when I look at the history of the Puritans, taking their lives and writings as examples of how they lived and believed, and the fact that we at the PB think that the Puritans were definitely on the right track, if not totally cool, how is it that we take so much time out of our lives in secular pursuits? We scoff at the idea of a "carnal" Christian, but how much better are we?

I'm not talking about taking five minutes to see the sports highlights of the day on the news (though that definitely qualifies) or listening to secular music on the way home (though that also qualifies) from work. I'm talking about a collection of CDs worth hundreds of dollars that takes hours out of our week. Or a TV that takes hours out of every day. Not to mention the time that was spent earning the money to purchase them. How will we answer before His throne for those wasted hours/days/years? If we are to glory in serving Him, do we really need 'rest' from this service?

I'm not talking about personal external piety. I'm talking about us, as Soli Deo Gloria standard-bearers, spending hours a day, months a year, culminating into years of our lives in worldly or self-gratifying pursuits.

I just want to know, how do we rationalize this in our lives? Is it just a shameful reality? Do we try to prop it up with Scripture? What?

__________________
Kevin
Far East
Deacon, Int'l Church

I think that in Christian circles there can be a huge differentiation between things of the "Christian" world and things of the "secular" world; a differentiation I don't see in scripture. All things are given to us for our use and enjoyment. I can enjoy watching the television of an evening, because it is God's good gift.

Now, I'm not advocating slobbing around and becoming a couch potato, but I am saying that we are playing with fire if we separate things of this world from the things of God.

Jesus slept in the boat

__________________
Vaughan
BTh Student, Sydney Missionary Bible College
Ashfield Presbyterian Church
Sydney, Australia
The Ransomed

I hope it wasn't on the Lord's Day!

__________________
Adam Leavelle
Westminster OPC
Roaring Spring Pa.

http://www.myspace.com/aleavelle
"Speak wisdom to a fool and he'll think you have no sense at all"

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Kevin,

I hope I am not reading you wrongly, but I think there are actually two seperate questions in your OP.

1) To what extent can believers partake of the 'things of the world' without being spotted by the world.

2) To what extent can believers engage in activities that God allows or has not condemned but which are not directly spiritual.

I think sometimes (and I am not saying you do it) discussions of this nature get a little confused between the two and that hinders the clarity of discussion. For instance, if being spotted by the world was not under consideration, there would be (IMO) no difference between taking an hour to watch TV and taking an hour to walk in the park. Yet most christians would consider the two activities of a different 'type' in that there are many christians who would shun the former but have no problem at all with the latter.

Just thought that might help to focus the discussion a bit. Of course, I could be wrong...

__________________
Mark
Independent baptist
Singapore

Yes, Christ slept in the boat. He did not 'chill' with a beer in front of the TV. He was refreshing His human nature and/or demonstrating the insignificance of the storm's danger to Him, label it as you will. He was not 'kicking back'.

Please, please understand that in starting this thread, I am one of the worst offenders and thus am seeking a Scripturally sound way to handle this and lay out a proper path. But while I will curl up in bed with a simple flu, Calvin dictated sermons and doctrine in spite of severe and unrelenting pain. He was carried in to preach and sat as he was unable to walk or stand. Milton dictated his best work to his daughters after his sight was taken and soon before he died. I am sure there are examples ad infinitum among reformers and Puritans alone but my point is that these men understood the sense of urgency and the responsibility which they undertook living each moment for God.

Adam, you once posted a quote by Spurgeon that I have read at least a dozen times since. Included in there is:

And no, I am in no way suggesting that those who watch TV are chewing on "dog's meat". But why do we seek after the things of the world? Even on the most innocent of TV shows or movies we will be assaulted by inappropriate behaviour, inappropriate dress, and a variety of other things which are not edifying to anyone, let alone the Lord our God.

Mark, I think this issue that I have with this is not so much "how much can I partake of before I will be spotted by it" but instead, "if I live to serve Him, what desire can I possibly have for it?"

When we over-work, where does our refreshment lie? In Him? Or in the bear-baiting of our day? I myself engage in mindless pursuits in order to refresh but why is it that when my tank is empty, I am not refilling with 93 octane, but instead am pouring in the offal of the world and the product of a Godless industry.

We are ready to condemn Arminians at the drop of a hat and engage in virtual hand to hand combat with each other over Exclusive Psalmody or Baptism, but are glad to roll in the filth of the world during most of our resting moments. I just don't understand the disconnect there. Again, this is me looking into the mirror, there is no pointing of fingers at anyone here.

If I tell you that I listen to Boston in my time off, or I tell you that I listen to Iron Maiden instead, why does the attitude of the listener change? Both are Godless, both are apart from His will for our lives, and both represent the same world, but because one is more conspicuously wicked, we somehow make a distinction between the two.

What is it that makes this garbage so palatable to us and why do we continue to consume it?

Because I listen to Van Halen, watch Quantum Leap reruns and love Indiana Jones movies to death as well as Edgar Alan Poe literature I don't feel these things are entirely bankrupt.

They display human creatvity and reflect the glory of God whether they mean to or not by the fact intelligent beings were given such creativity to create music and poetry and art and adventurous story telling.

We are permitted to enjoy the pagan's culture that is not scraping the bottom of human depravity, we are afterall human and have inate desires and instincts that manifest themselves in pagans and believers alike, not just the sin nature but the grace of humanity for the sun rises and sets over us both.

I can enjoy the world's sports and escapism and I'll leave it to the pagan to be absorbed and ruled by them, there is a difference and with our freedom in Christ we can enjoy the likes of Steven Spielberg, Arthur Conan Doyle and Eric Clapton guilt free even though they are not believers themselves.

__________________

Travis Speegle
Redeemer Presbyterian, PCA (Waco, Tx)
Pacific Cross Roads, PCA (Los Angeles, CA)


"When it comes to trustworthy theologians one can usually honor the rule of thumb that the deader the better."-Dr. John Hannah, DTS (of all places)

I love Iron Maiden

Let me also say, I am a firm proponent of redeeming the time. Also, as I chill in front of the TV with my beer and subway sandwich, let me say that I do believe we need to be on guard for the things of this world. Tonight I am going to watch an episode of a show my wife and I watch, and then head to bed to read 1 Corinthians and Calvin.

Now, one of these actions is more edifying for myself, but both actions can be just as equally glorifying to God. My joy is in Christ, my enjoyment of His creation is one of the ways I show my joy.

I think that more important than the questions is the motivation for the questions. This is where you will find the solution to the tension that these questions cause.

Do you ask because you wonder about your own election?
Do you ask because you sense you are not like other believers on the path?
Do you think you are missing something, a blessing or the answer to a mystery"
Do you feel unworthy of the blessings of salvation?

These are all good motivations and questions we ought to ask ourselves regularly.

The problem is that in trying to answer these question our hearts, our nature, will try to codify or build of list of things we must do in order feel assured that we are truly spiritual. How many of the commandments must we follow in order that God will be pleased with our performance?

The solution is NOT to look to ourselves for God pleasing life. Self-evaluation is good and necessary not because we can track our betterment, but because it drives us back to Christ and His gospel.

Christ has lived the God pleasing life. When we find ourselves lacking, it is one, a result of the Spirit's work in us in sanctification, and two, a motivator to look to Christ. My life, my true life, my God pleasing life is hidden in Christ.

Do you watch too much TV? Praise God that you will ask the question. If you have to ask then the Spirit is shining his light on an area of your life that may need some re-evaluation. But don't try and hold another to what the Spirit has convicted you of.

Most importantly, whatever change you decide to make in your behavior, do it solely out of honor to the Father through the finished work of the Son by the power of the Spirit. In this way, whatever you do proceeds from faith. (That which does not proceed from faith, is sin.) Be motivated by gratitude for the finished work of Christ and never that you might, in your flesh, be more acceptable to God.

__________________
Bob Vigneault (Bawb Vēēn-yo)
"We are God's children and He's the Father of all fathers and we need to obey him." Jean-Baptiste Vigneault (5)

The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog) MySpace (Music), MySpace (Personal)
Member of Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Which sermon? I think I've got everything of his that's on the internet...

__________________
Chris Latch
Corinth MS
Crossroads church - SBC
Evangelism leader

OK, let's go through the motivation first:

Do you ask because you wonder about your own election?
Nope, I am a hard-boiled 'frozen chosen' and that is not at issue.

Do you ask because you sense you are not like other believers on the path? Not so much. Maybe with regards to some fairly insignificant doctrinal issues (being of the Dutch tradition instead of the English), and perhaps when it comes to the "Saddleback Syndrome" type of church (I'm steadfastly against it and make no bones about it.)

Do you think you are missing something, a blessing or the answer to a 'mystery'?
Don't think so. Salvation is a pretty big blessing as far as blessings go, and I'm not looking for anything beyond that. I am not going to try and decipher the thought processes of the Creator, just trying to walk as I should.

Do you feel unworthy of the blessings of salvation?
Unworthy? Not sure about that word. I know I am undeserving, but that's all of us. I am thankful to the point of incredulity, but I don't mope about how there's no possibility that God could redeem such as me. He's done it and I'm not about to argue.

I guess it is more the "living sacrifice" idea as well as the "guilt, grace, gratitude" concept that drives me to this. No, God doesn't need anything I can possibly conjure up or do. I'm clear on that. But when I say I am striving to live for Him and keep His commandments and yet spend so much time immersed in the diversions of the world, I feel like I'm partaking of a little too much 'cheap grace'. In my family, I need only look to my maternal grandfather to see a man who lived quite like a Puritan, and in two generations, it has come to this? Thus I feel myself running back to that path, as self-examination DOES spotlight the need for the gospel and His love and blood to remain always in the forefront BUT at the same time, I want to make an honest statement that I strive to live for Him and live in His service. I want to be killing indwelling sin and I don't feel that I can do that when I am surrounded by and partake of the pleasures of the world.

As for holding others to what the Spirit has convicted me of, that is not my intent. But surely we all battle with this in some form, do we not? We do and will struggle with sin, every one of us, every day, until we pass into glory. I am asking why it is that we (or maybe it's just me) find certain conspicuous sin so appealing when we should hate it and why I am not more driven to make every moment count.

Also, with regards to the comments about Iron Maiden, I can say, with a huge dose of experience, that there is no possible way to listen to them in a way that could edify the Lord. I won't hold anyone else to convictions that the Spirit holds me to but there's also a point at which a brother must speak up.

No group of men, even jokingly, can sing...

...without some serious issues being present in their souls. It has been years since I have listened to that song and I can recite it word for word. It has seared into my mind like little else could - I have no problem believing that it is verdomde and van de devil. (Hence I hope the wink was an earnest one!)

Chris, not sure about which one - I will sift through and try to let you know but it may be a while, I've got a LOT of his stuff too. It's like sermon heroin...

Give me Phil.4:8 any time - I would have thought that the world's cisterns hold not attraction for the Christian. Can we enjoy supporting with our time and money that which is blatantly opposed to our LORD?

__________________
Independent Reformed Baptist Church (NE England, nr. Durham)

Kevin, I struggle with the same convictions you do. I will have these flashes of how a certain pasttime is just vanity or worldliness or pointless pleasure seeking. I cannot tell though if they are the Holy Spirit convicting me or if it is my flesh trying to be severe and work for salvation instead of trusting Christ.

I understand that the salvation is of the Lord and cannot be earned but there are two sides in scripture. Scripture also says that Faith without works is dead. And I understand that verse in the reformed sense and not the Catholic one. That it means a true faith will bear the fruit of godliness. This is even more of a conundrum for me since the puritans really did live the way these convictions point me so I have a historical witness that others felt this way and acted on it.

Almost no one lives like the puritans now. Almost no one strives for this type of holiness anymore and it is often branded as legalism instead of a biblical standard that we should try to emulate. We are all sinners and will defend our pet pasttimes with the cry of Christian Liberty especially among reformed Christians. Granted the thrills of today are even more fun than ever before. My husband and I are gamers and the technology of games is just breathtaking now. Have you seen the newest Halo3 trailer!!

The other issue is how much are we supposed to strive in our own strength to live up to this standard. Are we to patiently wait for God's sanctifying hand? We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Have we lost that fear?

These threads also die very quicks deaths. No one wants to know the answer. Then we would have to do something about it. Just watch this one will be a deserted wasteland soon.

__________________
Traci
Lynnwood OPC
Psalm 52:8-9
8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

Thanks for posting that quote again Kevin! My short reply was in jest trying to laugh at some of our debates we have here as you eluded to when you referenced EP and baptism, etc.

Do you want to know what I think the problem is? This may offend some here, but I think the problem is the Church body. It's been my experience (for the most part) that even when a local body has one, two, or maybe even three members who have this conviction they are seen as the "weirdo's" of the flock.

I waste as much or more time than anyone, but during the phases of my walk where I have been on fire and sought to separate myself further and further from the world I've found it to be too lonely of a place to be! Now that may sound like a poor excuse, but I’m sorry, if I can find no one to walk with me down such a difficult path, the chances of remaining in it are slim.

I pray to God often that I could find a group of believers who would meet daily! I would so much prefer that to watching TV or going to the movies. Sadly, I can never, ever find this group! Everyone is too busy. The issue with the Presbyterian Church that I’ve run into is that they don’t want to call an “official” service too often because this causes members to feel “bound” to attend. My old evangelical church was open nearly every day with bible studies, family gatherings, etc. So often I would go there to fellowship, study the word, and pray together rather than going out on the town of turning on a TV show. On the few days that the church was not open, members’ homes were in order to meet over coffee and an open bible. I miss that very, very badly. I work a job where Church members would have to come to me. I work in a LARGE home with plenty of space and I bet some of our kids might even get involved but I couldn’t get anyone interested. In fact, the few studies we had were far from weekly and were often rescheduled. When we had them there might be four or five people that attended!

I suppose all of this sounds like I am blaming others for me not walking as I desire to walk, but I thought that was what a Church was for? I mean didn’t Christ even have a few that he could normally rely on? I love my brothers and sisters but when I press hard to press on harder I feel rather alone in that call/request. Often I just give up and hope to do what I can.

You seemed to have called that Traci!

No kidding, Traci called it right on. I know it's not a popular topic...

Adam, it is tough to find a support group for this sort of thing, especially living in the world we do. It's bad enough living in China, where the marketing machine is much less practised than in the US. In the US, you pile a bunch of cookies in front of a child, then say "touch them, smell them, stare at them, even lick them but don't you DARE take a bite."

The comment about needing a pal to walk the path with is dead on. And it usually has to be someone of the same sex. In this one instance, a spouse doesn't usually fit the bill. Don't get me wrong - my wife is incredibly supportive, loving, respects me and looks to me as the head of the family (I think I lead a very charmed life!) BUT she's not a guy. And that is what it takes when it comes to accountability in this sort of situation.

As for the role of the church, it is also essential. I have been listening to sermonaudio.com for several months now to help in my search for a home church upon our return. It is a wonderful tool in the search. If you are going to Joel Osteen's big warm fuzzy and are convicted to live a Puritan's life, you'd likely have charges of legalism leveled at you first, then be mocked for worrying about things that God doesn't care a whit about. How long will you be able to walk that road if you stay and have no one to walk with you? Not long...

Brother Bob -

I believe the admonition can go both ways. On the one hand we should not seek to avoid things believing they may be the secret to happiness or godliness. Monasticism came out of that mindset. On the other hand we should not indulge in everything that God created because we have liberty. Antinomianism is the logical conclusion of that thinking.

My brother may stumble with going to the movies, whereas I have no such problem. I may be tempted in the presence of alcohol, but my brother may drink responsibly. Bob quoted Paul's words to the Romans and they bear repeating, "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

Firebrand preaching will never replace the time we spend in the scriptures. Even if a preacher is correct, a believer who is not convinced by scripture will be driven back and forth by every convincing sermon they hear. We must search the scriptures diligently. As we do so, we will find Christ on every page. As we find Christ, the scriptures will be like a cool breeze, refreshing our soul.

In our post-modern world, even our desire for peace and godliness becomes subjective. We have forgotten, and for some of us have never experienced, the simplicity of Christ. Our Lord said:

Brother Bob's post caused my mind to dwell on these things. Shall we not take on our Lord's yoke and learn from Him? For it is in Christ that we shall find rest from our weariness.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

Peter has much to say on this topic in his very rich intro to his first letter.

First off, and this is a key you must remember as you are working through any doctrine, always begin with the Divine nature of God. All doctrines, from election to sanctification must be understood to be consistent with God's nature and decrees. For example, God's love must be set against the truth of God's immutability, holiness, mercy, omniscience, etc. We don't start with our experience, we begin with God's being.

Peter begins a discussion of our sanctification, our transformation and conformity to his revealed will, by making it clear that our transformation is powered by God. Knowledge of God's being is the engine that moves the creature Godward. The unsaved runs from God in fear but the child of God is enamored and runs into the arms of the Father as the Father draws him.

Peter then reminds us to take inventory of God's promises. "He will not leave us. He who began a GOOD work in us will see it through. Those whom the Father gives me I will in no ways cast out." Too many more wondrous promises to list here, but they give us the confidence to approach the Father and dare ask for grace in our walk. Knowing that in Him there is now NO condemnation and that the work of the Cross has been effectually applied Peter can say we have "escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.'

In light of who God is and the finished redemptive work of Christ Peter now tells us we may look to supplementing what has been done (by faith) with our own RESPONSE of pursuing virtue. The important point here, of course, is that we are RESPONDING to what has been accomplished, NOT trying to accomplish a missing work.

Peter tells us that we never arrive at perfection (completion), not in this life anyway. The great evidence of virtuous living is not a finished product but a life characterized by transformation. And finally notice that the goal here is not sinless perfection but that your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ is increased. This completes the cycle, and it is a cycle.

1. We dwell and abide in the knowledge of God
2. This knowledge transforms our thoughts, our minds are renewed.
3. The Spirit reveals sins that have long indwelt us.
3. Our new way of thinking results in renewed principles and convictions.
4. Our convictions, driven by the Word change our behavior - we put off the old ways, we put on the new.
5. Good fruit is produced and our godliness (God is becoming more of our emotional focus) leads us to study the Word and pray.
6. In prayer and study we dwell and abide in the knowledge of God.

We will not be rid of all of our old sinful ways after one cycle. In fact we won't be rid of them after a thousand cycles. As our knowledge of the Holy One increases, so will our knowledge and grief over sin. ("Woe is me, I am undone.") This is what characterized the Puritans. Read The Valley of Vision, you will see.

Even when we stand before God in Glory we will not own a true satisfaction with our own efforts. We will still be confessing, it was all of Christ and nothing of me, blessed be his name.