Public Education (Universities???)

chbrooking · #1 (**permalink**) 06-30-2009, 01:17 PM

Recent threads have brought out the claws and drawn blood on the matter of public education.

I'm not expecting or even wanting this to be a lengthy discussion. And I'm not really taking a stand here. I'm not even contributing a comment. I'd just like to ask question that might be related. Most of these recent threads have been talking about K-12 public schools. What do those of you who are so adamantly opposed to public K-12 education think about state universities? Is that completely different? If so, why? I can think of some things that make it different, so don't assume that I'm arguing against you. I'd just like to see your thoughts on the matter.

smhbbag · #2 (**permalink**) 06-30-2009, 01:27 PM

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What do those of you who are so adamantly opposed to public K-12 education think about state universities? Is that completely different? If so, why?

As one of those in the "adamantly opposed" group, I would have to say there is only one real difference. And that is the difference between an adult and a child. Assuming a child has been raised well, has grown in maturity by God's grace, and has a good head on their shoulders, I would view them going to public university much like I would if they were going to secular employment.

Is the young man or woman armed and ready? If so, then by all means they can go.

Because of this, and because of the number of truly amazing, mature, and well-prepared teens I have met, I am even open to the possibility of a 15-18 year old attending public high school, if the situation is right. Though, I think in overall numbers, this exception is so small as to barely be worth mentioning. But I do recognize it is possible for a 15 year-old to be ready for that.

Any younger than that, and my position becomes an outright prohibition on public schooling, as I simply cannot accept that it is possible for a 3-13 year old to escape that environment with no ill-effect.

So, in my mind, the only question is: can this young man fend for himself amongst the wolves? If so, then there is liberty. Can the parents really look at the child and say, "This is a grown man or woman, who may happen to still live with us"? If so, then that is the answer.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are many 18 years old children that have no business going off to a secular college. And while I would never throw around an accusation of sin for sending a kid to a secular college, it is a very difficult judgment call that the parents and children will have to make together. Hopefully, the young person would have learned to take the wisdom of his parents seriously.

I suspect there may be more than one camp on this among those who disapprove of public k-12. I'll be interested to see. Thanks for drawing it out.

JBaldwin · #3 (**permalink**) 06-30-2009, 10:00 PM

In their early years Harvard and Yale were Puritan and Princeton was Presbyterian. That answers the question in my mind.

smhbbag · #4 (**permalink**) 06-30-2009, 10:19 PM

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In their early years Harvard and Yale were Puritan and Princeton was Presbyterian. That answers the question in my mind.

How does it answer the question? I honestly cannot tell what position that statement would argue toward.

JBaldwin · #5 (**permalink**) 06-30-2009, 10:27 PM

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Originally Posted by smhbbag

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In their early years Harvard and Yale were Puritan and Princeton was Presbyterian. That answers the question in my mind.

How does it answer the question?

It appears to me that traditionally Presbyterians and Puritans saw the value of being educated by believers in the Word and with the Word of God, i.e. with a "Christian worldview", and they left us a good example to follow. Unless there is some type of knowledge that cannot be obtained from Christian universities, for example, a particular field of expertise, I don't see how sitting under ungodly men who seek to undermine God and His Word is worth the time or money, especially if there is an opportunity to study under godly professors.

I attended both christian and public universities. I also worked for a state university for three years. I've seen both sides. In today's public universities, Christians are fed to the wolves. While it is a good dose of what a student will face in the real world (actually what they get in the university is far worse in some cases), it is not necessary.

Rich Koster · #6 (**permalink**) 06-30-2009, 10:34 PM

I went to a city college in NYC. We were allowed to pick our electives, they were not dictated to us along with our major. A k-12 usually dictates curriculum, with a vo-tech being the exception to a minor degree. However things may have changed since the early 1980's.

smhbbag · #7 (**permalink**) 06-30-2009, 10:49 PM

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It appears to me that traditionally Presbyterians and Puritans saw the value of being educated by believers in the Word and with the Word of God, i.e. with a "Christian worldview", and they left us a good example to follow. Unless there is some type of knowledge that cannot be obtained from Christian universities, for example, a particular field of expertise, I don't see how sitting under ungodly men who seek to undermine God and His Word is worth the time or money, especially if there is an opportunity to study under godly professors.

I attended both christian and public universities. I also worked for a state university for three years. I've seen both sides. In today's public universities, Christians are fed to the wolves. While it is a good dose of what a student will face in the real world (actually what they get in the university is far worse in some cases), it is not necessary.

I don't have any real objection to what you have written, although I come to a slightly different conclusion. It may only be my personality, but I prefer wolves who are honest and market themselves as such so I know what I'm getting.

I know that no issue can be solved by appealing to a few anecdotes, but my wife and I make a good case for my perspective. She went to Dordt College (CRC), and I went to a state school. Her faith was attacked far more severely and more subtly because of the appearance of godliness. There was no possible way I could be fooled by my professors, as they walked like wolves, howled like wolves, and ate like wolves. I would honestly fear for a child's faith more at an average Christian school than a public one, at least for college. At 'christian' schools, the wolves have very good disguises that even sound students may have trouble recognizing.

Now, I know that doesn't address your point, as you would be in favor of the (dwindling) number of Christian colleges that are mostly sound.

What I would defend, however, is allowing a mature son or daughter to choose between the two (strong Christian vs. Public - the only option I'd rule out for sure are the half-Christian schools, as they are most dangerous).

For a mature son or daughter, I genuinely see no difference in the wisdom of either choice, assuming an excellent local church was available in both instances. If the 'child' is in fact an adult, well-schooled in the faith, and unbending to peer pressure, then he or she ought to have the same freedom to choose their environment as I have in choosing my work environment.

Way down on the priority list, but still relevant, is the fact that I just don't believe any private, doctrinally-sound school is worth $20-40k a year. That's an outrage. To be worth that amount is a claim that only a very few colleges can make, and then only for specific fields. I just can't fathom how solid, Christian universities willingly enslave their students to bankers for decades just so they can look like the world on the outside.

Montanablue · #8 (**permalink**) 06-30-2009, 11:08 PM

I attended a state university and I can honestly say it was the best decision I ever made. I had wanted to attend a Christian school and I was encouraged by family and friends to do so. In the end, because of finances, I really had no choice but public university or no university at all.

Despite my reticence, public university is, quite honestly, the absolute best thing that ever happened to me. People at my college challenged my faith and it was good. I had to question why I believed what I believed and came across a LOT of holes in my belief. Through my campus ministry and Christan friends that I encountered at public university, I discovered reformed thought(I grew up in a fundamentalist church, although my parents were not really fundamentalists). Also, by being at a public university, I met people from all different classes and backgrounds - making me understand that Christianity is relevent across culture and class, its not just for middle class white people. This was something that, strangely enough, I don't think I really got before.

Another huge advantage to me was that I had to completely leave my safe Christian bubble. I didn't really understand how the real world worked or how many people viewed Christians before I went to university. Now, I get it and my faith is stronger because of it. I argue politics, philosophy, and theology regularly with good friends, and (If I do say so myself) I'm able to hold my own AND have a productive and engaging conversation with them. I don't know that this would have happened (for me) if I had gone to a smaller private Christian school.

I don't mean to knock Christian college or Christian education. My younger sister goes to a Christian college and has had a largely good experience there. I can see definite advantages to integrating faith with learning- particularly, say, in a philosophy class. I also agree that Christian education is best for younger children (although I don't think its a sin to send your children to public school). I was homeschooled k-12 and it was a great thing - both academically as well as spiritually. But, going to a large public state school was at least as good for me as my being homeschooled was. Different things will work for different people and God uses a variety of means to care for his people, so I certainly don't mean to say that public university is for everyone. But in my case, it was absolutely the best thing for me. I can't imagine where I would be now if I hadn't done it.

-----Added 6/30/2009 at 11:08:09 EST-----

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What I would defend, however, is allowing a mature son or daughter to choose between the two (strong Christian vs. Public - the only option I'd rule out for sure are the half-Christian schools, as they are most dangerous).

I agree completely. I've had two close friends who fell away from their faith while at "half-Christian" schools. (They both went a school called Berry in Georgia which admittedly I don't know much about, but it calls itself a Christian school while seeming to teach a sort of western Judeo-Christian morality that lacks a foundation). This sort of piety and good works view of religion is extremely shaky and its SO easy for a cynical college student to see through.

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Way down on the priority list, but still relevant, is the fact that I just don't believe any private, doctrinally-sound school is worth $20-40k a year. That's an outrage. To be worth that amount is a claim that only a very few colleges can make, and then only for specific fields. I just can't fathom how solid, Christian universities willingly enslave their students to bankers for decades just so they can look like the world on the outside.

Again, so true. The Christian school that I really wanted to attend (which shall remain nameless as I believe its generally a very sound school) had a financial aid counselor who told me that if I really took my faith seriously I would go in debt to attend their school. I actually felt like a bad Christian for not wanting to go into horrible debt! Fortunately, my parents disabused me of that notion. It really angers me to see Christian schools encouraging (or even coercing) young people to take out massive and, frankly, irresponsible loans.

**Marrow Man** · #9 (**permalink**) 06-30-2009, 11:11 PM

I became a Christian at a state college because I was moved into a room with two Christian roommates who shared the faith with me. So I'm glad I went.

TimV · #10 (**permalink**) 07-01-2009, 12:24 AM

If a State college can offer the same services in the free market as private colleges, trade schools etc... why not? Except that it's a hypothetical question since a State college couldn't compete with a privately run school.

A place where one can pay to go learn a trade. Not somewhere the State says you have to go to learn how to live. There's a big difference there.