Moderatorial Note: This thread has been reduced in size and opened for discussion on the practical topic of what you do and don't do in order to keep the 4th commandment. Stay on topic, and stay polite, or be blocked from participation on this thread.

Your Tyrannical Moderator,

Ruben



By God's grace, I look to the Ten Commandments as a "rule for life," including the Fourth Commandment. While I have not kept it perfectly, I have found great blessing in obedience.

I am wondering what you understand to be generally prohibited practices on the Lord's Day. I say "generally" to allow exception for doing these things when they come about by way of necessity and mercy.

In this thread, I would prefer to focus on how the Commandment is practically observed.

Can you ordinarily do these things on the Lord's Day and not violate the Fourth Commandment?

(answer yes/no/not sure to each and if you care to, give a scriptural reason).

1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home
2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling
3) watching sports on television or internet
4) taking a nap
5) getting money out of an ATM
6) playing light recreation sports outside
7) playing heavy recreation sports outside
8) pleasure driving in the countryside
9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on
10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman

PS In closing the thread, I'll give my understanding of each- a couple of these I'm thinking through now and am interested in how you all would apply Scripture.

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina

Soli Deo Gloria

I would say all of those things are permissible, unless it is at all possible to get out of working Sundays as a fireman. That being said, the Lord's Day should have worship and fellowship as the priorities, and none of of those activities listed above should be done at their expense.

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Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

I would see all these things as permissible, if proper worship was not left out on this day.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

And, if one is a fireman, than even the lack of proper worship is permissible because fires don't merely happen on non-church hours.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

The only one on this list that I try to avoid on a Sunday is #2, eating out. There have been exceptions, though, and I think context is important.

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Eric
Woodgreen Presbyterian (PCA)
Calgary, Alberta CANADA

Eric: Yes, I agree. Even when not travelling, there are cases of need at times.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

I've not time to write at length, but just in answer to the above:

1) No --- this would be causing others to work on the Sabbath, which the Fourth Commandment forbids. When away from home, I do the same thing I do when I am at home . . . purchase whatever victuals I will need on the preceding Saturday (and even if passing the Sabbath in a place without normal cooking facilities, one can have ready bread and butter, fruit and other such foods which require no preparation).

2) No --- For the reasons outlined above.

3) No --- For we are to put aside all works and recreations, even those which may legitimately be done the other six days of the week, and give the day wholly unto the things of God, works of true necessity and mercy only excepted.

4) Yes, I believe naps certainly may be taken if needed to keep us fresh for the other duties and devotions of the day, though I should think moderation and watchfulness would be needed to ensure it did not become a habit of wiling away precious Sabbath hours in an unspiritual frame.

5) No --- The use of these machines requires their upkeep and re-filling on the Sabbath, which will require others to work most unnecessarily, as this may surely be done other days of the week.

6) No --- Reasoning as per (3) above.

7) No --- Reasoning as per (3) above.

8) I generally would not, though I am not sure I could state this particular one as an absolute. The day should be given wholly unto God, and so surely a pleasure drive which is nothing more than that would not be appropriate; if it were, however, used as a time of meditation upon God and upon His works, I would not see it as prohibited (so long as it did not necessitate re-filling the car with petrol, of course).

9) No --- Again, the day belongs wholly unto God, and so normal recreations which may be done the other days of the week should not be done on this day. There would be nothing wrong with eating outdoors any more than eating indoors, but the same standards would apply that all the time should be spent in devotion unto God and in spiritual conversation, and so playing the radio would not be appropriate.

10) A fireman's work is a true work of necessity, and so Scripture (and consequently our reformed confessions) allows for this to be attended to legitimately on the Sabbath. Of course I am sure a godly fireman would do all he could to ensure the rota did not take him away from the public worship too many times consecutively; and he would also strive to keep the day holy even while sitting at the fire station, and would not treat it the same as other work days.

I am sorry that the above may look somewhat blunt as I do not have time to write at length. The great positive blessings and joys of a well-spent Sabbath should always be kept at the forefront of our thoughts when discussing these matters, but at the same time I do think it very useful to discuss the practical applications (such as those you have brought up), since it is in practical ways that our obedience will be manifested and the blessings thereof enjoyed.

Kind regards,

Jie-Huli

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Jie-Huli
Metropolitan Tabernacle Church
London, England

Yes, only because you may not have any other way not being at home. 1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home
No 2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling
No 3) watching sports on television or internet
Yes 4) taking a nap
? 5) getting money out of an ATM
No 6) playing light recreation sports outside
No 7) playing heavy recreation sports outside
? 8) pleasure driving in the countryside
No 9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on
* 10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman
*Are you at liberty not to schedule it on Sundays?

I put ? marks where it would depend on the circumstances. If the drive is just for your own pleasure then no. Is the cash to buy and sell on the Sabbath then no. If for giving to the church then yes. The days is reserved to be kept holy and unto God. This means setting aside our regular pastimes and keeping the day wholly unto God.

KJV Isaiah 58:13-14
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

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Traci
Lynnwood OPC
Psalm 52:8-9
8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

Some examples of permissible actions on the Sabbath:


1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home

Travelling preachers or missionaries have to eat, soldiers too...etc. Hard to pack a cooler everywhere.


2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling

Family member is ill and you have to watch them or their kids. Need or emergency arises that is not mere frivolous time-spending. Fridge goes out and all meat spoils. HUndreds of such scenarios warrant that we at least acknowledge that permissible cases exist.


3) watching sports on television or internet

One can rest on the Sabbath.



4) taking a nap

Body needs rest.



5) getting money out of an ATM

The thing is on whether you use it or not and often it is a need.



6) playing light recreation sports outside

Family bonding or health benefits.



7) playing heavy recreation sports outside

Family bonding or health benefits.



8) pleasure driving in the countryside

See God's creation.


9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on

Gotta eat. Why not enjoy it?



10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman

All workers want weekends off. Pleading special religious cases to get a disproportionate amount of weekends off is akin to sniveling. If soldiers and firemen have to be on duty then all should take equal shares of weekend duty.



As far as recreation goes; obviously this is a matter of conviction. I see no negative injunctions in the NT about the Sabbath...it's not even called the Sabbath anyway but is called the Lord's Day and the positive command to worship is given and not forsake our assembling.

If we do not allow tv or light sports, then neither can we allow for the reading of any fiction or anything for leisure that is not bible related. We cannot even allow walking in the woods unless we pay or make an effort to ponder the Creator. We simply cannot rest or be at leisure on our day of rest if we have to do nothing but pray or read the Bible.


Every Sunday we play with our kids extra, if tired take a nap and I go for a jog every Sunday. Once corporate worship is finished, we use the day to recharge our batteries. The day should not be a straight jacket; a "holy resting all that day" does not rule out recreation, which IS a form of mental rest and bodily recuperation.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Greetings again,

We must be absolutely clear on the first principles and then apply them to specific situations methodically, or else these discussions can just go around in circles (in a way most confusing to outside observers). The first principles on the Sabbath Day are very well summarised in paragraphs 7 and 8 of Chapter 21 of the Westminster Confession of Faith (the 1689 Baptist Confession being essentially identical on this point), with the crux being: "This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations, but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy."

This is the traditional reformed understanding of the teaching of the Scriptures on the Christian Sabbath, and when this teaching is rightly grasped, there can surely be no controversy on most of the specific matters raised in the opening post. So if one wants to argue that most of those things are permissible on the Sabbath, he should admit that this is actually because he does not accept the traditional reformed teaching on the subject . . . he disagrees with the first principles and, thus, no wonder that he comes to different conclusions on the specifics. It is not just a question of application, and it should not be insinuated that the traditional teaching itself leads one to a quagmire of difficulties of application. In fact, the traditional teaching presents to us the utmost clarity and a blessed straightforwardness which is to our great benefit.

With that in mind, I am not attempting to make any personal statements below, but simply wish to respond to some of the hypotheticals raised as I appreciate that many who read these threads (particularly those new to an understanding of the Sabbath) may be influenced by them at a very practical level.

I think the supposed difficulties on this issue are largely manufactured. I have been away from home on the Sabbath many a time, and there is not the slightest inconvenience in procuring a limited number of non-perishable provisions on the Saturday to take one through the Sabbath. There are all sorts of foods that require neither preparation nor a "cooler" if the facilities are not available --- bread, scones, butter, bananas, apples (and many other fruits and vegetables), cured meats, tuna, marmite . . . the list could be endless, but the point is that there is clearly no "necessity" in eating out while travelling, as long as we conscientiously order our affairs beforehand.

The "rest" of the Sabbath should not be equated with common amusements, but is a complete spiritual rest from the works and recreations which take up so much of our time the rest of the week. Watching sports is obviously not a work of necessity or mercy and, thus, the Confession (based on the Scriptures) is clear that it is not properly done on the Sabbath. Let me quote the Puritan Thomas Vincent on this point (which would apply to playing sports as well):

"Q. 5. May we not lawfully recreate ourselves upon the Sabbath-day, especially since the day is appointed to be a day of rest from our toiling labour in the week?

A. We may and ought to recreate our minds on the Sabbath.day in the worship of God, we being bound to call and make in this respect the Sabbath our delight. But we ought to forbear recreating our minds with carnal delight, either by words or deeds, which we may do oa other days; and much more we ought to forbear recreating our bodies by sports and pastimes, though after the public exercise of God's worship be over. "If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."— Isa. 58:13, 14."


Whether a machine is on or not is of less concern to me than whether its use on the Sabbath leads to bank employees needing to check or re-fill it during the Sabbath. But again, is it ever really a "necessity" to withdraw money on the Sabbath? The only reason we would need money on the Sabbath would be to give it to the Church (if one makes offering in cash) or in some instances to pass money to brethren for some reason or another. But why can this not be done on Saturday, ordering one's common affairs beforehand, as the Confession states?


This is, of course, not the issue. We do certainly eat with joy and thanksgiving on the Sabbath day (as on other days) and, as I said above, there is nothing wrong with eating outdoors. The point is that during the meal (whether outdoors or indoors), we are to keep the day holy unto the Lord and thus avoid worldly conversation and amusements during the meal . . . and, specifically, I do not think it would be appropriate to listen to secular radio on the Sabbath day, whether at a picnic or otherwise.

It would not matter if the term "Sabbath" was not expressly applied to the Lord's Day in the New Testament, since clearly there is continuity between the Old and New Testament Sabbaths and the Fourth Commandment governs the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is the Christian Sabbath, and I think it very beneficial to use the term Sabbath to remind us of the connection with the Fourth Commandment. I would also point out just a couple of verses in the Gospels which support the term's continuing use:

Mark 2.27-28: "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

Matthew 20.24: "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day" (proving that Christ's followers would still be observing the Sabbath day at the time of the tribulation spoken of in this passage).

Quite right that secular fiction or other secular leisures would not be appropriate, as the day belongs wholly unto God and we are to put aside our own common pleasures and pastimes during this day to be given more wholly unto worship. I do not wish to pass judgment on the motives of anyone's heart, but I must say that I find the insinuation of the above statement most troubling. You (perhaps unintentionally) make it sound as though spiritual exercises are something of a chore, and people will not be able to bear them unless interspersed with secular enjoyments here and there. But, surely, the greatest "rest" is indeed a resting in Christ, being in sweet meditation on the things of His kingdom and enjoying a foretaste of that eternal Sabbath for which we wait. There will be no trivialities such as novels, football matches, radio programmes or the like during that eternal Sabbath, so if our hearts are so bound to them that we cannot even endure 24 hours without them while in this life, I am afraid there may be something slightly amiss in our priorities. Simply put, these kinds of things cannot intrude into the Lord's holy day without taking away from it and the blessings for which it was designed. The Sabbath was made for man and the proper spiritual observing of it is a tremendous refreshment to man. We must be careful that worldly ideas of "recreation" do not replace what the Bible actually means by "rest". There is a tremendous variety of spiritual activities and services which may properly be done on the Sabbath (and there is, of course, room also for strolling and napping if done in a holy frame), I have never suggested that every hour outside public worship must be spent in a dark room reading a systematic theology. I find the Sabbath such a blessing as it is (and the hours of it few enough as they are), that I simply cannot fathom the idea that any other "recreations" would need to be brought in.

Blessings,

Jie-Huli

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Jie-Huli
Metropolitan Tabernacle Church
London, England

Just to address the issue of utilities (such as water and electricity) generally, I would say that these are quite different from the other matters raised in the opening post, and we should be careful that these queries do not become a means of calling everything about Sabbath observance into question, or make it seem as though the teaching of the Christian Sabbath is some labyrinthine doctrine which is so difficult to apply that in the end it must simply be left to each person to decide for himself what is acceptable. (I am certainly not saying that is what you were doing, by the way).

I believe that utilities may properly be used on the Sabbath because:

(1) My understanding is that there is no incremental need for more employees to be working at the facilities based on how much of the utility is being used at any particular time and, thus, my use of water or electricity is not itself causing anyone to work; and

(2) Any work that does need to be done at utility companies on the Sabbath is in the nature of keeping watch on certain processes which must be kept running all the time (and are not affected by the amount of the utility being used on the day), and are required for, amongst other things, hospital equipment, police communications, traffic lights and other things which could legitimately be classified as necessities. Thus, arguably, the performance of the minimal work needed to keep the public utilities operating is itself a work of necessity.

If it could be shown that personal increased use of utilities actually did require extra personnel to work on the Sabbath, I would indeed curtail my usage.

Kind regards,

Jie-Huli

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Jie-Huli
Metropolitan Tabernacle Church
London, England

Just with regard to the "sundown to sundown" issue (though I know this might be slightly off topic), I think Thomas Vincent is, again, most helpful on this subject:

"Q. 6. When doth this holy day or Sabbath begin, in the evening before, or that morning from midnight?
A. In the evening before, by virtue of that word, "Remember to keep holy the seventh day," we ought to begin to prepare for the Sabbath; but the Sabbath itself doth not begin until the evening is spent, and midnight thereof over, and the morning after twelve of the clock beginneth.

Q. 7. Doth not the Scriptures require us to begin the Sabbath in the evening, when it is said, "The evening and the morning were the first day" (Gen. 1:5); and, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbath?"— Lev. 33:32.
A. 1. It doth not follow that the evening of the first day was before the morning, though it be first spoken of; no more than that Shem and Ham were elder than Japheth, because they are reckoned up in order before him. "The sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth (Gen. 10:1); and yet Japheth is called the elder brother. — Verse 21. But Moses, reckoning up the works of God on the first day, retires back from the evening to the morning, and saith, they both make up the first day. Surely in the account of all nations, and in Scripture account too, the morning is before the evening. "The same day at evening, being the first day of the week, came Jesus," &c. (John 20:10), where the evening following this day, and on the evening before the day, is called the evening of the same day. 2. That place in Leviticus, concerning the celebration of the Sabbath from evening to evening, hath a reference only unto a ceremonial Sabbath, or day of atonement, on the tenth day of the seventh month, wherein the Israelites were to afflict their souls; but it hath not a reference unto the weekly Sabbath.

Q. 8. How do you prove by the Scripture that the weekly Sabbath doth begin in the morning?
A. That the weekly Sabbath is to begin in the morning, is evident— 1. by Exod. 16:23: "This is that which the Lord hath said, to-morrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord." If the Sabbath had begun in the evening, Moses would have said, This evening doth begin the rest of the Sabbath; but he saith, To-morrow is the rest of the Sabbath. 2. Most evidently it doth appear that the Sabbath doth begin in the morning, and not in the evening, by Matt. 28:1: "In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre." If the end of the Jewish Sabbath were not in the evening, when it began to grow dark towards the night, but when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, which must needs be towards the morning, and in no rational sense can be interpreted of the evening, then the Sabbath did also begin in the morning, and not in the evening, for the beginning and ending must needs be about the same time. But the former is evident from this place, concerning the Jewish Sabbath's ending; and therefore, consequently concerning its beginning. 3. Further, it is also said in this place, that the first day, which is the Christian Sabbath, did begin towards the dawning, as it grew on towards light, and not as it grew on towards darkness; therefore the Christian Sabbath doth begin in the morning. 4. Moreover, the resurrection of Christ, in commemoration of which the Christian Sabbath is observed, was not in the evening, but early in the morning ("Now when Jesus was risen early, the first day of the week "— Mark 16:9); therefore the Sabbath is to begin in the morning. 5. If the Sabbath did begin in the evening before, it would end in the evening after; and it would be lawful for men to work in their callings, or to go to their recreations, on the evening of the Sabbath, which surely would be very unsuitable after the holy employments of that day."

Kind regards,

Jie-Huli

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Jie-Huli
Metropolitan Tabernacle Church
London, England

Well, as you will read on other threads, I am coming from the reformed "baptist" perspective, so my church doesn't teach a Sabbath day set aside to God. THAT is a topic I am still studying! But my strongest reading on this has been Jonathan Edward's Resolutions. He wouldn't even allow himself to make light (joke) if he didn't believe the situation would bring Glory to God. So I would answer the questions based on his resolutions. The answers would match with Jie-Huli's answers I believe. I do think that this thread (as any covering a tough topic) can easily slide into a pro/con Sabbath discussion. The thing that stands out is the reasoning and attitude on the Sabbath. By the time of Jesus the Pharisees and the like had become experts in ways around the Sabbath. Don't travel too far from home, put dirt from your home in your pocket! Etc. They were "technically" honoring the Sabbath, but it wasn't because they wished to honor God on that day, it was a day of inconvenience to their lives. Their hearts weren't for the Lord. I think once the Sabbath becomes a list of do's/don'ts for you, you are on the same course. From reading Edwards and many other Puritans, they would abstain from most of the things above, only because they couldn't do these without losing focus on God. It is hard to glorify the Lord while watching a sport or playing, because your mind is elsewhere. I don't think there is only this way or that to keep your mind on the Lord. That's why a drive through a beautiful parkway to marvel at the Lord's creation could be ok. I don't believe you can carry the part of making someone possibly work to an extreme. Almost anything we do, could cause someone to work. Driving (car repair if broken down), using any electricity (power plants take workers), same with water, etc. But here again there is a difference in purposefully causing (buying, etc) and possibly causing (electricity, water, driving). Once again it is a heart issue. I always worry about a strong stand on possible gray matters to as not be a stumbling block for someone's faith. That's my input as I am learnin'!

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Dave Bishop
Laymen
Reformed, Non-denominational

Reading through the thread reminded me why I am taking a very careful and slooooow approach to confessing a Sabbartian viewpoint.

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Geoff/Reformed Baptist
Acworth, GA
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Back up and updated...
http://ergatestheologia.blogspot.com/
http://dayspringchildrenshome.blogspot.com/

Just so you know, the Baptist Confession is Sabbatarian, and the historical Baptists did teach the necessity of keeping the Christian Sabbath holy.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Jie-Huli; Thanks for the responses. They are very consistent.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone