I tend to agree with you. However, it's tough as many are raised with the idea that self-defense is never ok, and I'm trying to sort through the fog. Also, I have recently moved into my own place and hope to start a family someday; therefore, I have considered purchasing a weapon.

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Taylor Otwell
Member -- Oak Cliff Baptist Church
Fort Smith, Arkansas, USA

Did we ever hear any cry out on their deathbed that they have been too holy, that they have prayed too much, or walked with God too much? – Thomas Watson, The Godly Man’s Picture

I'm pretty sure Rich meant to place demands in between the words also and the.

The 6th Commandment not only forbids the taking of life but also demands the protection of it.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Attending CCRPC, Member of TRBC
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I am a little puzzled by John Piper's post; it is not like him to post something that short without qualifying it at least a little.

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Dan Pemberton
Vacaville, CA

Member, First Baptist Church San Luis Obispo
Formerly ABUSA (We left, so I guess that makes us American Baptists Unleashed!)

In that context, Jesus is dying to save the elect, which is even greater than missionary work.

Also, to what passages about allowing others to strike us and steal from us are you referring? If that is the "do not resist evil" passage, then please remember that Christ is referring to humiliation and not mortal harm.

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Ben
First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA)
Ada, OH

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

Well, I don't think it's the ridiculous at all

Two questions...(1) how do you know a certain outcome will occur? e.g. an intruder enters your home...therefore you or a family member will be killed.
(2) Is a violent even lethal action the only way to stop a person from killing someone?

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Eddie Gonzalez
Grace Fellowship
El Cajon, CA

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God."
Romans v.1

Contextually, I don't think that is an accurate summary of Christ's commandments.

First, Christ wasn't being murdered, he was being arrested at the time. There's also the issue of the nature of His Messiahship where He had come to suffer for sin and not lead a coup against the earthly powers.

Next, the passages regarding being struck have to do with going out of our way to defend our name. We are to be willing to be reproached as opposed to going for the jugular of another when they reproach us.

Third, we are not commanded to allow others to steal from us. We're commanded to give liberally to others when they ask of something from us.

I would just note that I find it very strange that people would think that pacificism is the nature of the Gospel given its apparent penetration to military people among the Gentiles.

__________________
Rich
Northern VA
PCA

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That would be quite the charge. I don't put the love of either over the other. The way I love my wife and kids is different than how I love my neighbor and my enemy.

I would offer you this...which is apparently a radical, crazy idea...there are ways and means of preventing a person from killing or doing harm which do not involve my killing or doing harm. Killing, violence, is not an acceptable option in the eyes of Christ.

Well, I never said I did know. Since the invader is in my home, do I wait until he's actually struck, hurt, raped, or touched a family member before doing something, or do I prevent him from doing so? That's an easy answer for me.
Not sure I said that in any of my posts. However, sometimes, it is the only way.

Speaking of swords (guns) it got me thinking how John Piper uses the ESV and James White carries the NASB.

This can turn to a ESV vs. NASB battle.

__________________
Gil Garcia
Rehoboth Reformed Church (RCUS)
La Habra, CA


"Indeed, one might say that as far as the doctrine of justification
is concerned, if you are not on the road to Wittenberg or Geneva, then the old proverb is indeed true: all roads lead to Rome." Carl Trueman

What nonviolent option would there be for a rapist who has stolen your wife from you?

My point is not that we should choose violence as our first choice in any endeavors with evildoers, but rather that it is not a non-option.

So, are you pitting God against God? Are you asserting that Christ somehow brought a better or higher or holier principle of law? Really?

Eddie,

Honestly, your view of what Christianity is borders on some sort of strange Gnostic fatalism that is divorced from the things revealed. It is certainly not Reformed.

I will warn you that I have absolutely no patience for pacifists. I consider the very notion to be inherently wicked. It's the same kind of faith-denial that a man who would not provide for his family manifests.

Throughout the Scriptures, leaders are reproved for not granting justice or protecting the weak. God doesn't permit us to have a "pie in the sky" attitude to break into song like Pollyanna and hope that the whole town full of mean people will suddenly see that being nice is the way to go.

Christians who do not protect their own family and, by extension, believe that pagans should have to carry all the water when it comes to protecting society, do not know the spirit they are of.

This isn't about arming ourselves to the teeth so we can relish shooting people that dare to approach us but goes to the basics of whether or not men are commanded to guard against evil. Your reasoning might as well extend to spiritual peril as well. Why not just trust God that everything will work out and we can allow heretics in our pulpit and hope that God will just reveal that they're wrong and they'll suddenly start teaching truth.

No. Wisdom understands that wickedness does not self-suppress and God does not promise the immediate suppression of all wickedness against us. He commands, regularly, throughout His Word that men protect. The hidden things belong to God and the revealed things belong to us and our children (Deut 29:29). You want to avoid the revealed things of God about how He commands our protection of the weak on the one hand and live according to the hidden things. This is disobedient.

I don't like pacifists. Period. I think they're inherently selfish and people like the Anabaptists don't deserve the protections that a peaceful society provides them by the grace of a ministerial sword from God that they abhor and call wicked.

Here is a good explanation:

Q. 135. What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?
A. The duties required in the sixth commandment are all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves721 and others722 by resisting all thoughts and purposes,723 subduing all passions,724 and avoiding all occasions,725 temptations,726 and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any;727 by just defence thereof against violence,728 patient bearing of the hand of God,729 quietness of mind,730 cheerfulness of spirit;731 a sober use of meat,732 drink,733 physic,734 sleep,735 labour,736 and recreations;737 by charitable thoughts,738 love,739 compassion,740 meekness, gentleness, kindness;741 peaceable,742 mild and courteous speeches and behaviour;743 forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil;744 comforting and succouring the distressed and protecting and defending the innocent.745

Q. 136. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves,746 or of others,747 except in case of public justice,748 lawful war,749 or necessary defence;750 the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life;751 sinful anger,752 hatred,753 envy,754 desire of revenge;755 all excessive passions,756 distracting cares;757 immoderate use of meat, drink,758 labor,759 and recreations;760 provoking words,761 oppression,762 quarreling,763 striking, wounding,764 and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.765

Brother...so when Christ wove together a whip and drove money changers out of the temple for the evil they did, he did it prancing around and passing out flowers and speaking peace? I don't think I would have liked to be at the receiving of that whip...for some reason, even if it was peacful, it may have stung. Don't get me wrong, I am as peaceful as you assume you'd be, but there is a place for defending yourself.

I will now finish reading the rest of this thread.

__________________
soli Deo gloria!
~N!cholasNap!er~ Ordained Pastor
Attending Fulton Presbyterian, PCA; GPTS Student
Christians are like snow covered dung; it is the purity of the covering which the Father sees. -Luther-
There is nothing more ugly than a Christian orthodoxy without understanding or without compassion.
-Francis Schaeffer-

This is really the crux of the matter in my opinion. So the question that i have is, is it biblically in our power to do so?

I understand that the law of the land in the U.S. gives us the right to have arms. But then again, it also gives doctors the right to kill unborn babies.

What does the Scripture say about the power to take life?

Rom 13:4 tells us that our rulers bear the sword. If the power of death is extended past the government and is put into the hand of the Church and individuals should we also start killing adulterers?

Here's a question...
If we are to stop others from violating the commandment against murder when it's in our power, why don't we stop the doctors from killing unborn babies?

I say this as a gun-carrying Christian. I have just always wrestled with the spiritual implications.

__________________
Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
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“The Christian must not be of such a complying nature as to cut the coat of his profession according to the fashion of the times…" - William Gurnall

Larry,

I believe the WLC does a good job of distinguishing above. I think the Law is wise to consider it murder if a man is killed in your home in the daylight as a basic principle that there would be help nearby and the peril is not as dire. The basic principle of the Scriptures is that the sword belongs to the State but the State cannot always be locally present to protect life. A man who is guarding his home is upholding the 6th Commandment within the confines of his home to protect his household from harm. If the criminal flees and is shot in the back in vengeance then a man is no longer acting in self-defense but violating the Law of God.

We ought to properly distinguish between self-defense and the administration of justice for a crime. We're not the State but we are commanded by God to protect life within our homes.