Last week there was a little stir when John Piper posted his Guns and Martyrdom and James White replied.

I was wondering what thoughts of this group were on this. I have a feeling, from the previous threads on the issue of pacifism, that the majority would fall in line with James White. But, in my opinion, White failed to properly discredit Piper's sentiments. I have no idea of Piper has given any sort of response; doubt it, doubt he would. But I have sadly seen many flock to the proclamation that I will love my neighbors but not my enemies...in spite of Christ's command. I'm truly looking forward to your thoughts and any possible dialogue on this.

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Eddie Gonzalez
Grace Fellowship
El Cajon, CA

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God."
Romans v.1

So I should quote John 3:16 to the man who breaks into my house to kill my wife and daughter?

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Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

to Piper's quip. I say every house should have a gun (or several). It is a violation of the 6th Commandment to not defend one's family from someone else who is seeking to break the 6th Commandment.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I think White adequately replied to Piper. As much as I like John Piper, he is being far too pacifist in his refusal to defend against, say, a man intending to rape his wife. It is far different to die in the service of the Gospel and to die because a crackhead has invaded your house. The former is noble, as its result logically can lead many to Christ (by not establishing malice with the natives) while the latter is not (since it bears no relevance to salvation and is a terrible harm).

Yes, by not killing an intruder, you are allowing him more time for salvation, but doing so would be contrary to biblical mandates to defend your family. Additionally, as White pointed out, the "do not resist evil" passage is in reference to humiliation, not imminent physical harm.

Also, to keep in line with the rest...

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Ben
First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA)
Ada, OH

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

Thanks Seth.

So I should quote John 3:16 to the man who breaks into my house to kill my wife and daughter?

Piper never said that, though; or anything similar. Nor have I come across any pacifists who would advise that. Have you?

I take it by the thumbs down you would be against Piper's post.

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Eddie Gonzalez
Grace Fellowship
El Cajon, CA

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God."
Romans v.1

Should I revise my post to say "So I should shoot my pistol into the air as the man kills my wife and daughter?" - either one (John 3:16 or a shot in the air) has the same effect: a dead wife and daughter.

My thumbs down was meant to reinforce my disagreement with Piper's post.

I second Joshua's post: it is a violation of the sixth commandment to allow my neighbor (in this case my family) to be murdered while I stand idly by.

Funny thing is, Piper says "I hope you don’t use your economic stimulus check to buy a gun." but that was exactly what I was intending to do with my stimulus check!

H&P USP Compact 9mm

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Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

"If the thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account." (Ex. 22:2 NASB)

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Mike Shingler
Pastor: Steep Hollow Baptist Church (SBC)
Bryan, TX

Seth, have you made your purchase yet? I would go with at least a .40 or .45. 9mm ammo is cheaper, but it's not enough punch, IMHO if, in a hurry, you don't hit exactly the right spot.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

So, for clarification...

Would it have been right for those missionaries Dr. Piper mentioned to shoot the people who were trying to kill them? Why or why not?

I mention this because I hear that we are responsible to defend ourselves and those with us, yet it is generally agreed upon that missionaries should not start killing those who are persecuting them. I'm trying to separate between when the act of defense is justified and when it is not.

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Taylor Otwell
Member -- Oak Cliff Baptist Church
Fort Smith, Arkansas, USA

Did we ever hear any cry out on their deathbed that they have been too holy, that they have prayed too much, or walked with God too much? – Thomas Watson, The Godly Man’s Picture

As much as I love John Piper - I agree with JW. Don't threaten my family or my home or you will become dead, indeed.

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-JD
1Thess5:21
Ordained Deacon, PCA
Serving in the SBC
MS

My links: ChristianSkepticism.org | personal | facebook | Prescriptive Psalmody

Thanks Mike.

"If the thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account." (Ex. 22:2 NASB)

Do we not, though, have the example of Christ to follow? So often we see Old Testament verses given as refutation of the idea of loving your enemy and/or using nonviolent resistance. What I'm saying is that I would have thought Christians would posit the teachings and examples of Christ's life and death for their argumentation and reasoning.

I'm not trying to cop out or play the OT vs. NT game. I just thought followers of Christ would seek the imitation of Christ first. Plus, I do not believe the OT is prescriptive (but descriptive).

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Eddie Gonzalez
Grace Fellowship
El Cajon, CA

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God."
Romans v.1

I agree. I'm a very peaceful man. Nary a violent bone in me, but you threaten my family...well...I change.

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Ivan Schoen, Pastor * Maranatha Baptist Church * Poplar Grove, Illinois USA www.maranatha-sbc.org/
“One of the most important discoveries I have ever made is this truth: God is most glorified in me when I am most satisfied in him. This is the motor that drives my ministry as a pastor. It affects everything I do.” --- Dr. John Piper

Thanks Ivan.

So then you would say being peaceful is not a necessary aspect of being a follower of Christ (Christian)? Thanks

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Eddie Gonzalez
Grace Fellowship
El Cajon, CA

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God."
Romans v.1

I would say that pacifism when someone is trying to kill, rape, or hurt your family is not peaceful at all.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Taylor, Piper made the mistake of equating a crack dealer invading a man's home, in pursuit of killing, raping, and/or hurting his family with the instance of some missionaries being killed via persecution. The two do not equate. Shouldn't one agree that the 6th Commandment demands that a man defend his family? Of course.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I believe that we are always to choose the greater good. Since Jesus knew that through his passion and crucifixion, all of the elect would be saved, he had a nobler goal in mind. If we allow harm to befall us at the hands of an intruder, it is not towards any kind of salvific goal.

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Ben
First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA)
Ada, OH

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

Thanks Josh.

I can understand what you're saying. But, wouldn't that place the command of Christ to love our enemies and to pray for our persecutors (pretty sure he didn't mean "As you pull the trigger") into a category of Not Necessary? Thanks

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Eddie Gonzalez
Grace Fellowship
El Cajon, CA

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God."
Romans v.1

Not to hi-jack the thread, but to treply to this:

I already own a 9mm hand gun (Beretta 92S), so I wanted to stay consistent with the caliber. But, I am open to advice, and I appreciate this, Josh. No, I have not made my purchase yet (haven't received my check yet, either). There is a gun range here in town that let's you "rent" handguns so you can get a feel for them before making a purchase. I plan on doing this with a few different brands (Springfield XD, H&K USP Compact, etc) and calibers (9mm, .45, .40, etc) before making my final decision.

While I've heard that the .45 ACP and .40 S&W have more stopping power than a 9mm, I've also read a few sites that disagree with that assertion. Some say that it doesn't matter what caliber you use - if you don't hit the brain or the spine, it won't stop an assailant anyway.

And, Josh, if you'd like to start a new thread on this so we don't get too far off topic from the OP, please feel free. I've been meaning to for a while, but haven't gotten around to doing so.

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Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

Are you equating self-defense and upholding the 6th Commandment with hatred?

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)