An observation about the I in TULIP

historyb · #1 (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 08:35 PM

I was sitting in my car reading and I came to think about irresistible grace. I had two thoughts one was like when I got my dog out of the dog pen and how he took to me right away and the second was two lovers who became so in love that the idea of being together was, well, irresistible.

That's when I realized the Irresistible grace was like my second thought, that God woos us to Him and we respond and it's goes that way for a time until not being with God in inconceivable. The notion becomes irresistible, this can happen instantly or over time.

That was my thoughts, so what do you all think.

Re4mdant · #2 (**permalink**) 06-22-2009, 03:10 AM

Well God can woo all he wants to, if he not also creates the longing to be with him and gives us life to do so, we will be reluctant and dead forever.

So I like your first one better, eventhough we are not in the pound but in the morgue.

Wannabee · #3 (**permalink**) 06-22-2009, 08:58 AM

Well said Martin. Think Ezekiel and dry bones. We weren't wooed. Dead bones were given life. Now THAT'S irresistible.

***greenbaggins*** · #4 (**permalink**) 06-22-2009, 10:27 AM

I think the irresistibility of God's grace works differently on different people. The Scripture says that no one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him (the word actually means "drag a dead weight across the sand"). But that drawing can be gentle or violent, depending on the level of resistance in a person. For instance, for myself, age 6, it was a very gentle compelling force in my heart. For my father, rebellious for twenty some-odd years, it was a very violent conversion of the heart (Dad's was very similar to C.S. Lewis's experience in Surprised By Joy). I don't think there is a one size fits all here. God uses whatever level of compelling is necessary to change our will so that we want to believe.

Reformed Rush · #5 (**permalink**) 06-22-2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by historyb

I was sitting in my car reading and I came to think about irresistible grace. I had two thoughts one was like when I got my dog out of the dog pen and how he took to me right away and the second was two lovers who became so in love that the idea of being together was, well, irresistible.

That's when I realized the Irresistible grace was like my second thought, that God woos us to Him and we respond and it's goes that way for a time until not being with God in inconceivable. The notion becomes irresistible, this can happen instantly or over time.

That was my thoughts, so what do you all think.

The proper teaching of the doctrine of "Irresistable Grace" has all to do with successful results and little to do with describing various means.

The successful result of grace always being: Eternal life provided for every soul that the Father gave to the Son to save.

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

John 6:39

The grace of God is 100% efficacious; it never fails to save. For the manifestations of grace toward sinners is nothing less than the divine outworkings of Unconditional Election.

All those chosen by the Father in Christ before the foundation of the world, will be called (in various ways) to saving faith in the Son, without fail.

This divine decree cannot be thwarted or resisted.

historyb · #6 (**permalink**) 06-25-2009, 07:45 PM

So do we make any kind of choice at all?

AThornquist · #7 (**permalink**) 06-25-2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by historyb

So do we make any kind of choice at all?

Of course we do. It is just a result of God's movement. It's not part God and part us; it's all God, then we show the fruit of His great love and giving of spiritual life. That's not to say that some people don't fight with all of their flesh for a time before their new heart is acknowledged and embraced, but we can't hold out forever. Christ receives all whom the Father has given Him. No ifs, ands, or buts. And thank God for that! If it wasn't all God, I surely would screw it up and burn in hell.

Reformed Rush · #8 (**permalink**) 06-25-2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by historyb

So do we make any kind of choice at all?

All we read in the bible about "choices" or "choosing" refers to God's choosing and God's choices. Nothing about the choices of men.

Our response to His choosing to bestow Irresistible Grace upon us, is faith (which He gifts us with {Eph. 2:8&9}), and repentance (which He grants us {II Tim. 2:25}).

A love for God and His Law is planted in our new hearts provided for us by the regenerating and indwelling Holy Spirit; whose fruits and good works we thereafter exhibit.

The result: a life of thanksgiving, and submitting our wills to the sovereign will of God.

Poimen · #9 (**permalink**) 06-25-2009, 09:00 PM

Canons of Dordrecht, 3rd Head, Article 14

Quote:

Faith is therefore to be considered as the gift of God, not on account of its being offered by God to man, to be accepted or rejected at his pleasure, but because it is in reality conferred upon him, breathed and infused into him; nor even because God bestows the power or ability to believe, and then expects that man should by the exercise of his own free will consent to the terms of salvation and actually believe in Christ, but because He who works in man both to will and to work, and indeed all things in all, produces both the will to believe and the act of believing also.

It is true that we love God and He loves us but God's love is free i.e. based upon mercy and not compulsion while our love is a freed love by virtue of being freed from the slavery of sin because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) Our choice is then logically and chronologically based upon God's choice.

Reformed Rush · #10 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poimen

Canons of Dordrecht, 3rd Head, Article 14

Quote:

Faith is therefore to be considered as the gift of God, not on account of its being offered by God to man, to be accepted or rejected at his pleasure, but because it is in reality conferred upon him, breathed and infused into him; nor even because God bestows the power or ability to believe, and then expects that man should by the exercise of his own free will consent to the terms of salvation and actually believe in Christ, but because He who works in man both to will and to work, and indeed all things in all, produces both the will to believe and the act of believing also.

It is true that we love God and He loves us but God's love is free i.e. based upon mercy and not compulsion while our love is a freed love by virtue of being freed from the slavery of sin because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

Amen and Amen...Fine words, and our confession, also.

Quote:

Our choice is then logically and chronologically based upon God's choice.

Sorry to be nitpicky, but what "choice" do you refer to?

Scripture, please.

For we see no mention of human "choice" in the above confession.

historyb · #11 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 12:29 AM

So are you saying that we have no say in the great romance

Reformed Rush · #12 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by historyb

So are you saying that we have no say in the great romance

'Eh? "Romance?"

We are saying the only say the saved sinner has in his salvation, is one of expressed gratitude and thanksgiving, to God, for His choosing to extend grace to the undeserving.

Do you think that to be a wrong take?

How so, if so?

Poimen · #13 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 12:35 AM

Jim:

I used the word choice because Doug used it above. It may not be the most accurate word to use in this context but it is used in an attempt to answers his question in post #6.

historyb · #14 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed Rushs

Quote:

Originally Posted by historyb

So are you saying that we have no say in the great romance

'Eh? "Romance?"

We are saying the only say the saved sinner has in his salvation, is one of expressed gratitude and thanksgiving, to God, for His choosing to extend grace to the undeserving.

Do you think that to be a wrong take?

How so, if so?

I'm reading Ted Dekker's BLACK so I was looking for a word and grab "great romance". It's such as a romance like two lovers, I didn't make my wife love me I woo'ed her until she did. She had a choice in that and in someway we have a choice

Poimen · #15 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 12:41 AM

Doug:

Your question only maintains force if the first part of Irresistable Grace, Total Depravity, is lost. You will notice that our fathers at Dordrecht wisely coupled them in one Head.

So we really don't want to love God at all; in fact we hate Him. (Romans 8:7). Only until God changes us while we were enemies do we begin to love God. The great romance is not a mere wooing, but a changing us from within to be His, redeemed, justified and sanctified.

Indeed, first comes love then comes life. (Ephesians 2:4-5). Our love for God is really, then, only a response to His love and one that is inevitable because we are now alive in Christ.