Is the observance of Sunday a matter of Christian Liberty? - Page 4

armourbearer · #**121** (**permalink**) 11-29-2007, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Daniel, what is a continental sabbath?

That's a Sabbath where you only have a light breakfast and are hungry by about 10.00am. so that you crave something more.

Seriously, there is no substantial difference between them from a conservative reformed point of view.

NaphtaliPress · #**122** (**permalink**) 11-29-2007, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Daniel, what is a continental sabbath?

That's a Sabbath where you only have a light breakfast and are hungry by about 10.00am. so that you crave something more.

Very nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Seriously, there is no substantial difference between them from a conservative reformed point of view.

Truly, unless one has redefined continental to mean basically anti Sabbatarian, which seems to be the modern definition.

victorbravo · #**123** (**permalink**) 11-29-2007, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Daniel, what is a continental sabbath?

That's a Sabbath where you only have a light breakfast and are hungry by about 10.00am. so that you crave something more.

Very nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Seriously, there is no substantial difference between them from a conservative reformed point of view.

Truly, unless one has redefined continental to mean basically anti Sabbatarian, which seems to be the modern definition.

Yeah, I was all ready to say it had something to do with the Continental Calvin bowling, but Chris has pretty effectively taken the fun out of that myth.

BTW, Nicholas, I think the "continental view of the sabbath" idea actually has its roots in that myth.

Daniel Ritchie · #**124** (**permalink**) 11-30-2007, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot

Here is one Continental divine's perspective on Christian Sabbath-keeping as it pertains to the issue of recreation:

Wilhelmus a'Brakel, The Christian's Reasonable Service, Vol. 3, p. 144:

Quote:

Fourthly, we sin when we make this day into a day of worldly pleasure. The sabbath is a delight -- however, when we abuse it by delighting ourselves in worldly things and in the lusts of the flesh. This pertains to sailing, horse-riding, fishing, bird-hunting, playing tennis, playing ball, or to the entertaining of one's self with such things that are lawful at the appropriate time and place, in the appropriate company, and with the appropriate objective. This pertains even more to games of chance, playing cards, and playing with dice (cf. Isa. 58:13-14). However, strolling in the fields or in gardens (be it alone or with others) does not belong to the forbidden sins, if we do so for the purpose of observing the works of God, to glorify Him thereby, and to be refreshed according to soul and body. Even if the world does this in a sinful manner, this cannot prevent the believer from doing it in a spiritual manner.

Thanks for this quote; however, I fail to see the difference between playing ball for 10 minutes and strolling in the fields - surely both constitute a form of recreation?

Daniel Ritchie · #**125** (**permalink**) 11-30-2007, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Daniel, what is a continental sabbath?

That's a Sabbath where you only have a light breakfast and are hungry by about 10.00am. so that you crave something more.

The Aussies...they are just too funny

Daniel Ritchie · #**126** (**permalink**) 11-30-2007, 04:47 AM

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Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Here is a question that I would like to see answered by those who prefer a more Continental Sabbath:

If we are commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy, which we are, then does that not mean that we should abstain from common things (such as recreations) which are lawful on other days, but profane on God's holy day?

Daniel, what is a continental sabbath?

I would consider a continental Sabbath the view that some recreation is legitimate on the Lord's Day (but not professional sports), while the Scottish/Puritan view is that all recreation is forbidden on the Sabbath.

I hold the later because it is hard to reconcile recreation with Isaiah 58:13-14.

Amazing Grace · #**127** (**permalink**) 11-30-2007, 07:04 AM

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Originally Posted by CalvinandHodges

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Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalvinandHodges

I find your post most increddible. From Ursinus' commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism:

Apparently, your understanding of the Heidelberg Catechism is radically different from that of the writers of it.

Actually he does not speak of the duration, and stresses the fact of worshipping the Lord. Secondly, the work that was spoken by God was what is ORDINARILY done as occupation. Nothing more nothing less

Do you know what Jesus was condemning? I suggest you read some 1st semester rabbinical literature to understand the meaning of shabbat halacha. Jesus was condemning the pharisees becasue they utilyzed the oral law in conjunction with the written law. That is the meaning of Christ's words, "It has been said" vs It has been written.. There is a big big difference. Christ has John the Baptist theology in this respect.

Ch, this is like arguing the truth of the book a Maccabees with a roman catholic. It cannot be done. It is not in a protty bible, but it is in theirs. So without a level beginning, it is impossible to dialogue correctly. Jesus could do as He pleased, He is God. But He did not condemn for the same reasons you condemn a non sab.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalvinandHodges

That one party is in error concerning the observance of the Sabbath means that it is "inappropriate" to rebuke such? Your view of what is proper and not proper is flawed. In fact, it is not proper of you to rebuke me based on your own view of propriety. Your view leaves a vacuum between oposing viewpoints.

Blessings,

-CH

It appears that more emphasis is put on showing the error ina brother vs showing your opine to be right, when in fact they are both Arguements for the sake of Heaven. Christian Liberty proponents should not regard strict sabs to be in error, well at least I do not.

Where as statements like this:Teaching your child to disobey God on the Sabbath day is a form of spiritual murder. Ted Bundy could only affect the body, but you would be destroying a soul.

Which is worse?

sound like Moses' first cousin Korach who lead a rebellion against Moses and Aaron described in chapters 16 and 17 of the book of Numbers. While Korach(you CH) claims to be out for the good of the entire community,(upholding the 4th commandment and making it binding and a burden) he is in reality only interested in displacing Moses as the highest human authority.

You see the connection? Boht the Saducee and Pharisee started with the same root. They both believed in the 7th day. It is just you add the commandments of men, like the pharisee, which is not bad per se', as equally binding as the written Law.

Let me give you another example. A LAw stated that no commerce was to be done on the 7th day. Thats all the saducee would say, then the pharisee added that noone could carry money on the 7th day. Now their goal was to 'add' something to bind the people not as a burden, but only to reinforce the root of no commerce on the sabbath. So being a pharisee is not as bad as people make it to be. Obviously Christ was against them becasue He did not favor the oral law..

Hi:

You have skillfully ignored the point, and the question on this thread. As far as the duration of the Sabbath goes it is irrelevant when considering the Sabbath "Holy." Since the Ursinus commentary I quoted does not address the duration of the Sabbath by bringing in this topic you have created a logical fallacy - irrelevant thesis.

The questions that you must answer are: What does it mean to keep the Sabbath Holy? and, Does my Christian Freedom allow me to watch Football on Sundays?

The Oral laws - if there was such a thing - has nothing to do with what I am saying. Again, you bring in an irrelevant thesis in order to avoid answering the question.

Ursinus clearly points out that: "To keep holy the Sabbath, is not to spend the day in slothfulness and idleness (watching football?);" As I pointed out earlier (with parenthesis mine). If you are going to accuse me of Pharisaism, then I stand in good company with John Calvin, Ursinus, and the Puritans, and I would proudly wear such a label with these great men of God.

No Longer A Libertine:

I will commend the many posts of Chris Coldwell to you on this thread as "proof" of the position I hold. It would be rather tautological of me to repeat what he has written.

Blessings all,

-CH

CH:

I have not forgotten about our "duel" here. Just reflecting a tad so I do not answer from the flesh and bring abosolutely nothing into the dialogue..

NaphtaliPress · #**128** (**permalink**) 11-30-2007, 08:39 AM

Even the Scots Presbyterian and Puritan view would acknowledge some difference between walking in the field and what we normally think of as recreations. See Twisse's somewhat archaic addressing of the topic above. James Durham recognizes this is more in the area of the circumstances rather than simply unlawful as well.

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Wherefore, in reference to offense, men would have an eye on themselves,
and what generally they are reputed to be, and so would abstain from the
least appearance of what is supposed to be predominant in them, as also
they would have respect to others that are present, or may be hearers or
beholders, considering what are their thoughts of them, or of such deeds,
etc., and accordingly would carry [themselves], although it [would mean
abstaining] from such a place, apparel, diet, etc., which in reason,
abstractly [considered] from offense, might be pleaded for as becoming.
Thus one walking abroad on the Sabbath, may be sanctifying it, yet by his
example some other may be provoked to vage and gad and cast off all
duties of the day, and to neglect what is called for in secret, or in the
family. In that respect, it becomes offensive to go abroad, although it is
lawful in itself to meditate abroad in the fields, as well as in house.
James Durham, A Treatise Concerning Scandal (NP: 1990) 1.2, p. 14.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot

Here is one Continental divine's perspective on Christian Sabbath-keeping as it pertains to the issue of recreation:

Wilhelmus a'Brakel, The Christian's Reasonable Service, Vol. 3, p. 144:

Quote:

Fourthly, we sin when we make this day into a day of worldly pleasure. The sabbath is a delight -- however, when we abuse it by delighting ourselves in worldly things and in the lusts of the flesh. This pertains to sailing, horse-riding, fishing, bird-hunting, playing tennis, playing ball, or to the entertaining of one's self with such things that are lawful at the appropriate time and place, in the appropriate company, and with the appropriate objective. This pertains even more to games of chance, playing cards, and playing with dice (cf. Isa. 58:13-14). However, strolling in the fields or in gardens (be it alone or with others) does not belong to the forbidden sins, if we do so for the purpose of observing the works of God, to glorify Him thereby, and to be refreshed according to soul and body. Even if the world does this in a sinful manner, this cannot prevent the believer from doing it in a spiritual manner.

Thanks for this quote; however, I fail to see the difference between playing ball for 10 minutes and strolling in the fields - surely both constitute a form of recreation?

NaphtaliPress · #**129** (**permalink**) 11-30-2007, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victorbravo

Yeah, I was all ready to say it had something to do with the Continental Calvin bowling, but Chris has pretty effectively taken the fun out of that myth.

That's me, Mr. Lettheairoutoftheballoon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by victorbravo

BTW, Nicholas, I think the "continental view of the sabbath" idea actually has its roots in that myth.

Well, at the very least some sure give that impression when that seems to be the reflex defense of it!

tdowns007 · #**130** (**permalink**) 11-30-2007, 01:17 PM

I think, half this thread is a

and a third is

(with the little marks meaning frustrated words not cuss words), and a lot of watchers are

while some are

, and many are

, while I'm

only with a guitar, singing praises to my King for patience as I figure it all out......

Seriously, assuming, that, I don't embrace what I understand to be the basic of Non-Sabbath keepers, which is, "I'm keeping the 4th commandment, by, RESTING IN CHRIST, because HE IS THE SABBATH, so, that is my sabbath"...like the John Macarthur's, etc....and I do, for now, trust, in the Reformers, and the Confessions, which I am, and hold to the Sabbath view, then the NO WORK FOR ME OR OTHERS, seems obvious.

What does not seem obvious, is what constitutes,

“ If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the LORD honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

First, if this is the only verse for no fun, or no recreation on Sabbath...I don't know context, etc...but seems like the language is not so specific, otherwise, you'd have to not say anything, at all, that was not scripture.

On a broader note,

When my son, is having fun, I, as his father, find delight. I'm pleased to see him, use his body, enjoy the fun, and the very, very, very, productive, and useful physical activity; activity, that is SCIENTIFICALLY proven, to not only make his body healthy, but his mind. So, if our body, and soul, are all one, and both are GOOD, then why, would it not be a pleasure, to God, the Father, to see his children, rejoice in the Lord, using their bodies, with more focus, on the Sabbath, on God, in these things. Not professional...but for enjoyment. Taking delight (especially on the Sabbath, as well as in other days) in God, and what he has given us, in health, and mind, and creation.

I would argue, that, most great writers, are great readers, and enjoy, for their own pleasure, reading great works, so, to sit back, on a Sunday, and read all day, and fellowship, and maybe, just maybe, put off time with their kids (that possibly, they did not spend time with anyway, due to their very Godly time in their study) is so easy to say, this is what is Godly on the Sabbath.

I find it hard to believe, in all the time, between Jesus picking wheat in the fields, and our modern society, where only recently, did people even have large houses, and couches, and bibles in hand, that the Sabbath consisted of sitting around, visiting, and napping, and reading the Word.

It just seems, to me, that God the Father, would delight, in a father and son, or daughter, playing together, in the name of God, with the rejoicing of God on their lips, in the field or in the yard. Along with the study of the word, the sacraments on Sunday morning, etc.

I think non-physical people, might not quiet understand, that the mind is alive, and the focus can be on God, during physical activity.

Just some thoughts, on the culture of it all.

Another thought, on the flip side, most in days past, probably spent their time in physical labor all week, so to rest, for them, would mean, non physical, where those of us, who are stuck, inside, using our minds, all day, being drained, some physical activity, is truly rest for the mind.

I aim to submit, to the authority of God's word, and the Historic, Reformed Faith has not led me astray, so I'm seeking to understand it, truthfully, so I can submit to God's word, and follow it...I fail daily, and PRAISE GOD, for Christ's righteousness over me...just to give you the tone of where I'm coming from.

armourbearer · #**131** (**permalink**) 11-30-2007, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Thanks for this quote; however, I fail to see the difference between playing ball for 10 minutes and strolling in the fields - surely both constitute a form of recreation?

John Willison takes the same view (see quotation below). I wonder, though, seeing we live in an age where it is rare to find people walking to services, if it might be permissible to take a brief stroll just to refresh oneself so as to be more alert in the public and private exercises of God's worship.

Quote:

Willison: There are recreations which are voluntary and not necessary, freely chosen by people for their bodily pleasure and diversion; such as sports, pastimes, or games, whether more public or more private, such as playing at cards, dice, chess, tables, &c., or any sort of carnal music, such as whistling, singing, or playing of an instrument, or putting off the time with worldly converse, jesting, laughing, telling idle stories, walking and talking idly in the streets, or seeking our pleasure in the fields, though it be after public worship is over. Now, all such recreations being our own works, and for our own pleasure, and not subservient to the duties of God’s worship, but hindrances thereto, are unlawful on the Sabbath-day, as being expressly contrary to that rest required in the fourth commandment, and to that plain word in Isa. 58:13, 14, “If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable, and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasures, nor speaking thine own words – then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord, and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob,” &c. Now, can there be any thing more directly levelled against carnal recreations, idle talking, walking, &c., on the Sabbath-day, than this is? “We must turn away our foot from doing our own pleasure on it,” i.e. by travelling or walking for pleasure or recreation; nay, we must neither do our own ways, speak our own words, nor find our own pleasures, on this day. (Works, 33, 34.)

Semper Fidelis · #**132** (**permalink**) 11-30-2007, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Thanks for this quote; however, I fail to see the difference between playing ball for 10 minutes and strolling in the fields - surely both constitute a form of recreation?

John Willison takes the same view (see quotation below). I wonder, though, seeing we live in an age where it is rare to find people walking to services, if it might be permissible to take a brief stroll just to refresh oneself so as to be more alert in the public and private exercises of God's worship.

Quote:

Willison: There are recreations which are voluntary and not necessary, freely chosen by people for their bodily pleasure and diversion; such as sports, pastimes, or games, whether more public or more private, such as playing at cards, dice, chess, tables, &c., or any sort of carnal music, such as whistling, singing, or playing of an instrument, or putting off the time with worldly converse, jesting, laughing, telling idle stories, walking and talking idly in the streets, or seeking our pleasure in the fields, though it be after public worship is over. Now, all such recreations being our own works, and for our own pleasure, and not subservient to the duties of God’s worship, but hindrances thereto, are unlawful on the Sabbath-day, as being expressly contrary to that rest required in the fourth commandment, and to that plain word in Isa. 58:13, 14, “If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable, and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasures, nor speaking thine own words – then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord, and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob,” &c. Now, can there be any thing more directly levelled against carnal recreations, idle talking, walking, &c., on the Sabbath-day, than this is? “We must turn away our foot from doing our own pleasure on it,” i.e. by travelling or walking for pleasure or recreation; nay, we must neither do our own ways, speak our own words, nor find our own pleasures, on this day. (Works, 33, 34.)

This is a very good point about the benefits of getting your heart going. I'm convinced that one of the reasons I've done well academically over the years is AM exercise. I'm never so focused as when I'm moving.

Even the Pharisees recognized a Sabbath Day's walk could be up to 6 miles long. It's not as if they had cars back then. There's nothing inherently recreational about going on a stroll.

VirginiaHuguenot · #**133** (**permalink**) 11-30-2007, 09:11 PM

Yes, I note that Willison speaks of "idle walking" whereas a'Brakel distinguishes between strolling with a godly purpose in view and vain or sinful walking about:

Quote:

However, strolling in the fields or in gardens (be it alone or with others) does not belong to the forbidden sins, if we do so for the purpose of observing the works of God, to glorify Him thereby, and to be refreshed according to soul and body. Even if the world does this in a sinful manner, this cannot prevent the believer from doing it in a spiritual manner.

Daniel Ritchie · #**134** (**permalink**) 11-30-2007, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot

Yes, I note that Willison speaks of "idle walking" whereas a'Brakel distinguishes between strolling with a godly purpose in view and vain or sinful walking about:

Quote:

However, strolling in the fields or in gardens (be it alone or with others) does not belong to the forbidden sins, if we do so for the purpose of observing the works of God, to glorify Him thereby, and to be refreshed according to soul and body. Even if the world does this in a sinful manner, this cannot prevent the believer from doing it in a spiritual manner.

Again this is an interesting point; however, might not a Continental Sabbath person (especially if he eats such a light breakfast

) respond by saying that throwing a ball in the air for ten minutes is done in order to refocus his mind on worship?