Why does Al Martin attract so much opposition? Is Scripture not on his side? I'd prefer argument to abuse.

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Independent Reformed Baptist Church (NE England, nr. Durham)

Dieter,

I'll answer this question. I'm actually surprised you asked it if you read the thread. I'm not aware of anyone who has actually listened to the audio actually criticized what Pastor Martin said. There was a discussion that ensued around what modesty is/isn't, who is responsible for it, what the motivation for it is, etc. I think you need to separate the two discussions because I've read nothing but praise for his actual Sunday School class.

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Rich
Okinawa, Japan
Deacon, Central Baptist Church, SBC

SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion
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It boils down to a strain of legalism Michael. One that Paul so clearly condemns over and over. Sanctification by works is as deadly, perhaps more than justification by works. You are trying to finish what God has started and will complete. You confess that you are justified by faith alone right Michael? Who has taught you or how have you concluded that you must now clean your life up and live holy by adhering to certain do's and don'ts . As you continue to do these do's and dont's you will become more and more like Christ. Hence, obedience is the key to godliness/Christlikeness. Paul is crystal clear in Galatians about this problem. He taught them that God was saving by "faith alone," without the law. In fact, as the law had no part of their salvation, it no longer had part in their perfection (ongoing sanctification). Soon after Paul left these Galatians, some came behind him and taught them to continue in the law and customs.

Galatians 3:1-11, "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."

Those living by the do's and don'ts found in Scripture have placed themselves under the curse of the law, the very thing Christ set us free from! So why do you so willingly place yourself under a system of rules? Why do you not rather live by the faith that saved us? My brother Michael, it can be for no other reason than having believed a lie; the lie of works-sanctification.

"The just shall live by faith.", Righteous living (sanctification) is obtained the same way righteous standing (justification) is by faith alone. It is not "progressively" obtained that one grows into over 20, 30, or 40 years of obedience to peccadillo rules. Christ is our sanctification Whom we received by faith. Remember Paul saying "I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me"?

You claim this 'duty of man' is done out of love for God, and to grow holier, yet scripture speaks against the method you are striving to gain the goal by. It is by Grace through faith Michael. Not by any list that someone has concocted. The only thing that can bring us into good standing with God is the finished work of Christ. This is the salvation message we believe by faith. Having believed this, why do you now act as if you are under a performance system after becoming righteous by faith-alone? Will works help you to become righteous (saved) - no! So why do you act as if works will now help you become holier? I fought this disease for years under a works based sanctification preacher. I struggled daily to please an angry God. It made me almost go mad. Then I realized We cannot do anything to make God love us more, or do anything to 'work' ourselves back into God's good favor after we sin. Christ died because we COULDN"T do anything to earn His grace, before or after salvation. If we could be in 'good standing' with God by living right for any period of time then Christ would not have had to die. There is nothing we could do before being saved to become righteous as there is nothing we can do now to become more righteous. As believers, we are the righteousness of Christ already by faith! We live righteously by this same faith, not by righteous works. We are not perfected/completed by our good works, for we are already perfect/complete in Him.

So, are we not to read God's word, pray, worship, give, serve, etc.? Of course we are. However, as we perform these activities we must realize that these activities will not make God love us any more, gain us any favor with God. Any moral self improvement plan is doomed to fail. Yes, we walk, yes we try to obey, yes we run, yes we labor, but we do all this by faith in Christ alone and His cross.

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N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI

Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

Amazing Grace,

I have not said much in the past day or so in this thread.. I have even thought that it might not be worth anymore time since I believe we have exhausted everything and I have not been convinced that my list is unbiblical. But I thought I should answer your post with regards to sanctification...

I have to completely disagree with you. I believe Sanctification is so important that without it no man, woman, or child will see God. You really need to read Holiness by J.C. Ryle... I can really do no justice to the work... It is one of the best books I have ever read....

In light of the discussions related to sanctification, Ryle’s comments are relevant.

“It is a subject which is peculiarly seasonable in the present day. Strange doctrines have risen up of late upon the whole subject of sanctification. Some appear to confound it with justification. Others fritter it away to nothing, under the pretence of zeal for free grace, and practically neglect it altogether. Others are so much afraid of ‘works’ being made a part of justification, that they can hardly find any place at all for ‘works’ in their religion."

In another section, Ryle stressed the cost of living a holy life in the midst of an unholy world. He urged his readers to take up the fight and wage daily war against the world, the flesh, and the devil in whatever arenas these enemies were encountered.

For Ryle, sanctification and growth in holiness are essential evidences that saving faith has happened and thereby serve to aid in producing assurance in the heart of believers. This assurance is something to be sought after and pursued heartily by the believer.

Let me aleast outline his books....

A) It is the invariable result of that vital union with Christ which true faith gives to a Christian. “The faith which has not a sanctifying influence on the character is no better than the faith of devils.”

B) It is the outcome and inseparable consequence of regeneration. “Where there is no sanctification there is no regeneration.”

C) It is the only certain evidence of that indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is essential to salvation. “The seal that the Spirit stamps on Christ’s people is sanctification.”

D) It is the only sure mark of God’s election. “Elect men and women may be known and distinguished by holy lives.”

E) It is a reality that will always be seen. A man’s “sanctification will be something felt and seen, though he himself may not understand it.”

F) It is a reality for which every believer is responsible. “Believers are eminently and peculiarly responsible and under a special obligation to live holy lives.”

G) It is a thing which admits of growth and degrees. “A man may climb from one step to another in holiness and be far more sanctified at one period of his life than another.”

H) It depends greatly on a diligent use of scriptural means. “He will never bless the soul of that man who pretends to be so high and spiritual that he can get on without [the means of grace].”

I) It is a thing which does not prevent a man having a great deal of inward spiritual conflict. “A true Christian is one who has not only peace of conscience, but war within.”

J) It is a thing which cannot justify a man, and yet it pleases God. “The Bible distinctly teaches that the holy actions of a sanctified man, although imperfect, are pleasing in the sight of God.”

K) It is a thing which will be found absolutely necessary as a witness to our character in the great Day of Judgment. “It will be utterly useless to plead that we believed in Christ unless our faith has had some sanctifying effect and been seen in our lives.”

L) It is absolutely necessary in order to train and prepare us for heaven. “We must be saints before we die if we are to be saints afterwards in glory.”

Ryle's Applications are the following

1. Let anyone who calls himself a Christian yet has not concern for Sanctification realize his perilous position.
2. Test your own salvation by your progress in sanctification.
3. Begin sanctification with Christ.
4. Work at sanctification continually.
5. There is no shame in making much of holiness; holiness = happiness


Again, Read the Book... I can not stress a more important book.... What I am and Ryle is espousing is not in any form legalism.. Legalism is believing one is justified by works and Pharisaicalism is adding to the law which is a subset of legalism... Remember, Justification is by Faith alone but without works Faith is Dead....

Michael

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Michael Daniels
Reformed, RPCNA
Denton, Maryland

As For Me And My House, We Will Serve The Lord

Unum Deum in Trinitate: Pater, Filius, et Spiritus Sanctus

Sola scriptura - Sola gratia - Sola fide - Solus Christus - Soli Deo gloria - Solum psalterium - Lex talionis

I guess that's why I was so confused. I didn't understand why Mr. Schneider would claim that any of us were being abusive towards each other or towards Al Martin. I listened to part of his message, and from what I heard, I seem to be in agreeance. All I've seen was civil (and at times, silly) debate and discussion as to the specifics of what is "modest".

I'm also not too sure of the "mockey" found among the "professing christians" that was alluded to. But I'm sure all of us here on the PB have demonstrated our desire to please the Lord, and that we're not just mere "professors" of Christ but his followers.

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Nikki Edmond
New Beginnings Believers Bible Fellowship (Family's Church), Non-Denom
Los Angeles, CA
www.haveatulip.com - Chat Room for Reformed Believers
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Michael, you say that you have not been convinced that your list is unBiblical; but I do wonder if you have any comment on the reversal that has been established with regard to a couple of texts/points that you made.

For instance, Isaac and Rebekah makes a point opposite to the one you listed it for.
Tamar and Judah shows that in patriarchal culture veiling your face was the very reverse of modesty.
The priest unveiling a woman may show that she was ordinarily veiled: but it also showed that being unveiled is not necessarily/probably going to promote lust.

Don't you feel that this warrants at least a cursory review of your hermeneutical method?

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Ruben

Spanish Blog -Teologia en Mexico
English Blog -The Howling Wilderness

It should also be considered that many men remain confused over the line at which attraction terminates and lust begins. There is nothing wrong with our God-given attraction to women and their features. The very "wow" that it creates ought to cause us to praise God for his creating us to experience such. Often, in our striving to exterminate lust, we end up condemning the very Godly desires and attractions that the creator put in man to begin with, along with condemning and stifling the natural beauty and attractiveness that God intended for women to have towards men. So, we men must be careful to not condemn the true stirrings of our desires towards a woman's features when we see them. Yet, we are not to purposefully stir the pot, so to speak, in order to inflame these desires into an inordinate sort of tumult or storm, for that is what lust is. And, women should not be ashamed if their natural, God-given features cause and entice a man to a moving and a stirring of his desires towards her beauty. For, God has so gifted them to have the ability to do so, for that is how it was meant to be. Yet, they are not to focus on leading men to having those desires become inflamed, so as to become inordinate and tumultuous, and improper and unbecoming. All of us must be cautious in drawing the proper distinction between a stirring of our desires, and a tumultuous and inflamed stirring of the same, for error in one direction is just as corrupt as error in the other.

So, blessings to you women for being beautiful and attractive, and blessings to God for creating men to gravitate towards such! And, what misery sin has created, in tending our desires to become inflamed and tumultuous beyond propriety! The solution is not found in diminishing and stifling the God-given desires into near non-existence, for this is the monk's solution. Rather, the solution is the gradual reign and dominion and sanctification of the Holy Spirit, which is brought about of his own doing. He will subdue our enemies; and he will place them under his feet. And, he will restrain the lust within us that we tend towards in all of our areas of desire.

Blessings!

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Charles Plauger
Member/Grace Reformed Church
Oakland, MD

I'm curious, does anyone know of a good website that sells headcoverings for Christian women? A site with photos.[/quote]

I have ordered some of my coverings from these two web sites. I like to cover most of my hair. Most of these styles comply with Jewish standards of modesty. I usually wear snoods and soft hats. They are easy to wear, store, and the come in many colors. Also, they are not a distraction like those big "church hats" can be. There is also a skirt site, if anyone is interested.

Welcome to Tznius.com - Modest Clothing - Modest Jewish Clothing, Tznius

Welcome to ModestWorld.com! The first Rabbinical approved clothing store on the web! Hats, Snoods, Caps, Head Scarves, Berets...Tznius Clothing for Women & Girls...Modest Jewish Clothing...Modest Israeli Clothing...Soft...Cotton...Full Coverage.

Welcome to JustDenimSkirts.com , Long Denim Skirts (having a sale right now)

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Evon Taylor
Okinawa Covenant Church, PCA
Okinawa, Japan

snoods? Ha, what's a snood...sounds funny, though.

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Pergamum

It does sound kind of funny. In fact, if you google it you will get replies for a game that I am not familiar with. However, if you go to the sites I have suggested you will see what they are.

Pergy, a snood is a baglike covering (a woman's hair is held in the bag rather than her having to pin it up). You've seen netted snoods on women that dress in Civil War reenactments...there are some cloth type ones that were popular in the Tudor era. I've worn both. If you go to the sites Evon listed and click on the snoods, you'll see some there also.

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JC
URCNA
PA

Check your reformed confessions and Scripture, because justification and sanctification are both acts of God's free grace, but sanctification is an infusion of grace by the Spirit (WLC Question 77). Sanctification is God's grace at work in us but it also requires works from us. Sanctification is always progressive and if it is not, then it is an indication that one is not justified by faith. Luther refered to the works in sanctification as the fruits of righteousness. I think you mistated the point when you said that the law has no part in our sanctification. The law certainly is at work in our sanctification. The third use of the law is the means of holiness. We are delivered from the law as a covenant of works, so that we are neither justified or condemned, but we are called to walk in holiness and continually put to death the deeds of the body. You have to make a clear distinction between justification and sanctification.

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Stephen
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia

Just side note: Reading over this post, and considering how my own wife dresses, I just want to offer a public praise to her that she has always dressed modestly. I do not agree with Coram Deo's presentation of biblical modesty. However, as far as Martin's sermon, and the general consensuses is of biblical female modesty, my wife has always been exemplary in her dress. She will even ask me to critique her new cloths as to whether they are modest or not - not merely relying upon her, or her friend's assessment. I know how rare this is among women, even Christian women today. How great God has been to bless me with such a wife! I am entirely undeserving, but my wife has been such a gracious gift from our Father.

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Jacob
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Covenant Fellowship Church
West Chester, PA

"Grace renews nature; glory perfects grace." ~ John Owen
Blog - The Strasbourg Inn

Thanks, Michael for your discussion on this point. I agree with you on this issue of sanctification. The Scriptures make it clear that we are to walk in holiness. Paul's epistles are all exhortations to walk in a manner