Male and Female Modesty - Page 3

Grymir · #81 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 11:17 AM

Corem Deo - Loved your swimwear. It's nice to see that spandex is making a comeback. (Ah, The days when I was in a hair band!)

To all. We all know what modesty is. Nobody can deny that the Bible calls for it. Anybody who tries to say it's ok for women to dress like sluts is wrong. plain wrong. Just go to the mall and look around. Teens dress very immodest. Parent's that give it their blessing and buy the clothes for them are corrupting their children. Even on Nickelodeon Channel the kids are dressed like whores.

Anybody who says women can wear whatever they want to, well, we can see through the lines. Very obviously too!

Stephen · #82 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

I think that should be obvious. Do you know immodesty when you see it?

Exactly! But who is you. Immodesty is actually somewhat cultural so it isn't a question that is immaterial. There are certain cultures where it does not tempt men to see women clad in a manner that would be very tempting to Western males.

Though in my culture, Christian women should dress in a way that does not cause men (in my culture) to lust.

Daniel, you are absolutely right. The way women dress today is far different than just a few years ago. I believe that the downward spiral of our western culture has affected dress in both men and women. If a woman is dressed where breasts are exposed and you can see her behind I think that would certainly be classified as immodest. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. A Christian woman should look somewhat different from the average girl on the street that resembles a harlot more than a woman. The way a woman dresses says alot about her character. The thing that attracted me to my wife the first time I met her was the way she dressed. She was not unkept as some fundamentalists think a woman should look, but she dressed like a lady. I have always found immodest and sloppy dressed women a real turn off.

BJClark · #83 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 11:23 AM

Coram Deo;

Quote:

HAHA, Shop On line for those things.. But if a man is brave enough to venture into the lingerie department which I have never been able to do (In Todays Cultural Climate, man would get to many stirs by people thinking the wrong think about the man) then more power to him...

I'm curious why do you think men 'get many stirs by people if they go into such a store'? Most people don't think anything negative of a man going into such a store shopping with his wife..or even alone for that matter.

When I see men shopping with their wives in such stores I actually praise God that these women are still seeking to please their husbands in such a way, especially given the divorce rate today.

I guess if I seen men in such stores alone, I could assume the worst of them, and think they are somehow there for vile purposes, but I don't.

Stephen · #84 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Butterfield

Not much to say here, but typical. I have never met a man or female who honestly espouses a true view of modest that would argue against the fact that men have a huge responsibility. Frankly, the world does not need your help in making us stumble. Frankly, from my perspective a good deal of women and I mean Christian women so called love to flaunt it just about as much as the world and they do not mind tell you so by exposing all kinds of body parts that ought to be covered and/or wearing clothing that reveals the rest.

Some questions for you:
What is modest for a man or a woman? Is it wearing certain things or acting a certain way? How are the modest folks to influence the less modest ones? Is there a sanction for the modesty impaired? Serious question.

Next thought: I attended Calvary Chapel for a while and they tended to go to the opposite extreme. I was somewhat bemused to see a young lady in a bikini lying on a lounge chair outside the sanctuary listening to the sermon. Their logic is that anyone is welcome. I do not agree with them but do not think it appropriate to be the clothing nazi. The immodestly dressed man or woman could be a new Christian and may need a friendly and gentle introduction to dressing and acting like a gentleman or a lady.

My question to you pastor is this: how can you welcome someone with less than modest dress and gently and lovingly teach them to value themselves more highly and dress appropriately?

Michael is merely seeking a Pastorate calgal.

This is a "both-and" situation as JBaldwin noted.

Wisdom demands that we treat these situations according to the issues at hand. The fact of the matter is that modesty is somewhat culturally defined. I'm not giving license to nudity but there are cultures that missionaries have gone into and the first thing they do is cover up the women as if, all along, the women should have intuitively known that they were being immodest and tempting men who were not in the least tempted by their dress.

Even a modest full length dress would be too much even today for some Arabic men unless the entire body (including the eyes) is covered. Even the form of the woman is too much for some. Simply having a full length dress would be inadequate if it didn't completely obscure every feminine feature.

Making hard and fast rules to fit all cultures everywhere is naive and does not comport with the pursuit of wisdom.

The larger principle is the desire to build up the entire body and to consider the frame of our fellow brothers and sisters - their eyes being merely one thing among many that might cause temptation to sin. It's simply silly to make a law that covers every every culture on the planet or women would, indeed, be covered from head to toe and not merely be wearing a head covering but a full body covering. Nevertheless, if women ever found themselves in a culture that did find their form, in any part, alluring, the Law would not demand of them they cover up everything but love of brother and the willingness to restrict one's own liberty for another may be called for.

Thanks, brother. I was looking for someone who would give us permission to start a Christian nudist club. I think we should get back to nature

JBaldwin · #85 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grymir

Corem Deo - Loved the swimwear. It's nice to see that spandex is making a comeback. (Ah, The days when I was in a hair band!)

To all. We all know what modesty is. Nobody can deny that the Bible calls for it. Anybody who tries to say it's ok for women to dress like sluts is wrong. plain wrong. Just go to the mall and look around. Teens dress very immodest. Parent's that give it their blessing and buy the clothes for them are corrupting their children. Even on Nickelodeon Channel the kids are dressed like whores.

Anybody who says women can wear whatever they want to, well, we can see through the lines. Very obviously too!

To be honest, I didn't get that from anyone on this thread. What I have seen is a "standards" vs. "heart attitude" discussion.

As it has already been said many times, modest dress is important (from both men and women), but heart attitude is just as important, and I would say THE most important. If our hearts are in the right place, our standards will fall in line. To be honest, I lived as a legalistic pharisee for many years. Frankly, my dress today is not a whole lot different than it was back then. I still carefully cover up. The difference? I don't worry about my dress, I worry about my attitude before the Lord. I make my decisions about clothing based on my love for the Lord and what pleases Him. Oddly enough, I end up making about the same choices as I did when I only cared what the rules were.

Coram Deo · #86 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 11:29 AM

BJclark,

I was referring to Men in the lingerie department alone... I have seen men by themselves in the department.. Of course I did not think badly about them but I show other people snickering and whispering near by "Oh, he must like ___________" You can fill in the blanks.... So it does happen because of todays cultural climate... Personally I find that online shopping for the wife is better and she can be there to help pick out... But ServantofGod had a good point too... "What is the point in more clothing once married"

Quote:

Originally Posted by BJClark

Coram Deo;

Quote:

HAHA, Shop On line for those things.. But if a man is brave enough to venture into the lingerie department which I have never been able to do (In Todays Cultural Climate, man would get to many stirs by people thinking the wrong think about the man) then more power to him...

I'm curious why do you think men 'get many stirs by people if they go into such a store'? Most people don't think anything negative of a man going into such a store shopping with his wife..or even alone for that matter.

When I see men shopping with their wives in such stores I actually praise God that these women are still seeking to please their husbands in such a way, especially given the divorce rate today.

I guess if I seen men in such stores alone, I could assume the worst of them, and think they are somehow there for vile purposes, but I don't.

Coram Deo · #87 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 11:33 AM

Jbaldwin,

Over the years, I have seen the reverse... Where woman or man are only concerned for the heart attitude and it never ever affects the outward person... I Agree both are important and both are to be held in balance but I always see the one end and not much the other end or balanced. Many times are standards will not fall in line... Both must be held up diligently

..

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBaldwin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grymir

Corem Deo - Loved the swimwear. It's nice to see that spandex is making a comeback. (Ah, The days when I was in a hair band!)

To all. We all know what modesty is. Nobody can deny that the Bible calls for it. Anybody who tries to say it's ok for women to dress like sluts is wrong. plain wrong. Just go to the mall and look around. Teens dress very immodest. Parent's that give it their blessing and buy the clothes for them are corrupting their children. Even on Nickelodeon Channel the kids are dressed like whores.

Anybody who says women can wear whatever they want to, well, we can see through the lines. Very obviously too!

To be honest, I didn't get that from anyone on this thread. What I have seen is a "standards" vs. "heart attitude" discussion.

As it has already been said many times, modest dress is important (from both men and women), but heart attitude is just as important, and I would say THE most important. If our hearts are in the right place, our standards will fall in line. To be honest, I lived as a legalistic pharisee for many years. Frankly, my dress today is not a whole lot different than it was back then. I still carefully cover up. The difference? I don't worry about my dress, I worry about my attitude before the Lord. I make my decisions about clothing based on my love for the Lord and what pleases Him. Oddly enough, I end up making about the same choices as I did when I only cared what the rules were.

Coram Deo · #88 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 11:39 AM

Well, I am taking a short break from this thread... I am going to try to enjoy some of the outdoors... I will try to catch back up tonight if there is not another 3 or 4 pages to read through....

JBaldwin · #89 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coram Deo

Jbaldwin,

Over the years, I have seen the reverse... Where woman or man are only concerned for the heart attitude and it never ever affects the outward person... I Agree both are important and both are to be held in balance but I always see the one end and not much the other end or balanced. Many times are standards will not fall in line... Both must be held up diligently

..

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBaldwin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grymir

Corem Deo - Loved the swimwear. It's nice to see that spandex is making a comeback. (Ah, The days when I was in a hair band!)

To all. We all know what modesty is. Nobody can deny that the Bible calls for it. Anybody who tries to say it's ok for women to dress like sluts is wrong. plain wrong. Just go to the mall and look around. Teens dress very immodest. Parent's that give it their blessing and buy the clothes for them are corrupting their children. Even on Nickelodeon Channel the kids are dressed like whores.

Anybody who says women can wear whatever they want to, well, we can see through the lines. Very obviously too!

To be honest, I didn't get that from anyone on this thread. What I have seen is a "standards" vs. "heart attitude" discussion.

As it has already been said many times, modest dress is important (from both men and women), but heart attitude is just as important, and I would say THE most important. If our hearts are in the right place, our standards will fall in line. To be honest, I lived as a legalistic pharisee for many years. Frankly, my dress today is not a whole lot different than it was back then. I still carefully cover up. The difference? I don't worry about my dress, I worry about my attitude before the Lord. I make my decisions about clothing based on my love for the Lord and what pleases Him. Oddly enough, I end up making about the same choices as I did when I only cared what the rules were.

What I am saying is that if people are genuinely concerned about their hearts before the Lord, and they have His Spirit living in them, they WILL do what is right.

The longer I walk with the Lord, the more I realize that there are many "tares" in the church. Our job is not to flush them out, but to walk before the Lord as holy and pray for them.

One of the most painful (and also freeing) areas of sanctification in my life has been in the area of judging others and what they do. It is so easy to point fingers, to criticize the others around us, to try to "sanctify" our neighbors, to look at the moat in our brother's eye and all the while fail to see the beam in our own. The fact is, we have to look at our own relationship before the Lord and compare OUR lives to His. If we do that, we see our wretched sinfulness, and the sins of others somehow seem minor in comparision to our own.

Stephen · #90 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coram Deo

Here is what I would wear... It is lightweight and does not hold water.

Beta ARs are made from new Gore-Tex® Pro Shell fabric and offer improved protection, breathability, durability and suppleness

Quote:

Originally Posted by BJClark

Could you please provide a link for men's modest swimwear as well?? I'd like to see what it looks like..

The only things I could find are with lycra wetsuits which is pretty much skin tight on men, or jeans and a t-shirt and well, men with wet t-shirts clinging to their muscle bound bodies can cause women to lust as well...

When I lived in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida I liked to go occassionaly to the beach to read and relax. I would always wear modest swim shorts and a short sleeve tee-shirt. I burn easily so I do not like to be exposed to the sun, but I was usually the most modestly dressed person at the beach. Ft. Lauderdale beach had a dress code they enforced until about ten years ago, and now people dress with very little. The men wear less than some women. How times have changed.

Simply_Nikki · #91 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 12:12 PM

I hope this doesn't offend anyone (and if it does, moderators don't hesitate to delete this post) But i just wanted to give an exmample of the types of skirts/dresses I would pick out among all the "other" choices to wear.

BJClark · #92 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 12:16 PM

Coram Deo;

Quote:

Of course I did not think badly about them but I show other people snickering and whispering near by "Oh, he must like ___________" You can fill in the blanks.... So it does happen because of todays cultural climate... Personally I find that online shopping for the wife is better and she can be there to help pick out... But ServantofGod had a good point too... "What is the point in more clothing once married"

In the instance mentioned above, I honestly don't think it's "because of today's culture" I believe it was more because of their own hearts. You said yourself, "I did not think badly about them" yet you live within the same culture climate as those who did snicker.

I don't shop online but I have looked at various sites to see what's out there..
and many of the websites I have personally looked at are filled with models clad in these sexy outfits, so how can one keep their thoughts pure in such cases, even with their wives sitting next to them?

Especially given what you've been saying that many struggle with lust even looking at a womans hair or legs, why would one set themselves up to lust over such images within the confines of their own homes looking with and for their wives? How could one justify having the internet coming into their homes given the many advertisements of barely clad women or women with their hair showing if they know they struggle with this?

BertMulder · #93 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 12:23 PM

From a thoroughly secular (Canadian) magazine:

Zinio | Digital Magazines

ServantofGod · #94 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coram Deo

ServantofGod,

Notice that it says OUTER garment.. There were inner garments of the day...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ServantofGod

When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment, for he was stripped for work, and threw himself into the sea."

This is true. But remember that we aren't talking predominantly about nudity. You had mentioned before about not wearing shorts, or using public restrooms, shall we say, publicly?

Quote:

Not sure about same sex situations but personally I will not use and have abstained from using public locker rooms because of modesty.. Additionally I will not use stand up wall unit in restrooms and always go to the closed door stalls to answer nature's call[reworded]...

But then there is the case of Noah and his son...

BJClark · #95 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 12:56 PM

BertMulder;

I was reading an article in a magazine the other day while at the hospital, and it was pretty much the same type thing as the Candian article; But it also spoke of kids getting cell phones when they are in kindergarden, and having internet, and cable TV in their bedrooms without parental supervision, and how parents allow their kids to dress in such clothes that by the time they hit their teenage years they have "Experienced most everything" and are now looking for a new thrill to fill the void, so some are asking for their parents permission to get married at 15 and 16 years of age for that new thrill...

BertMulder · #96 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 01:05 PM

Esteemed Bobbi,

As was my post mostly off-topic.

It is indeed terrible to see how sin begets sin...

And the great responsibility we have as parents...

Pergamum · #97 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 01:25 PM

Simply Nicki: Looks fairly classy.

I have a friend who ministers in Africa. Women often go largely topless among some tribes. His wife, however, was upbraided for her immodesty and dressing like a floozy. Her crime? She wore shorts whereas all good women covered their thighs.

This does illustrate that we see things through our cultural glasses. There are indeed universal standards but we often have a hard time acknowledging how much culture does determine what is sin and what is permissible.

Coram Deo: When shopping for lingerie it is less of a danger to go there in person then to google any lingerie related terms. Beware the NET!

Michael Butterfield · #98 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgal

Some questions for you:
What is modest for a man or a woman? Is it wearing certain things or acting a certain way? How are the modest folks to influence the less modest ones? Is there a sanction for the modesty impaired? Serious question.

Next thought: I attended Calvary Chapel for a while and they tended to go to the opposite extreme. I was somewhat bemused to see a young lady in a bikini lying on a lounge chair outside the sanctuary listening to the sermon. Their logic is that anyone is welcome. I do not agree with them but do not think it appropriate to be the clothing nazi. The immodestly dressed man or woman could be a new Christian and may need a friendly and gentle introduction to dressing and acting like a gentleman or a lady.

My question to you pastor is this: how can you welcome someone with less than modest dress and gently and lovingly teach them to value themselves more highly and dress appropriately?

Michael is merely seeking a Pastorate calgal.

This is a "both-and" situation as JBaldwin noted.

Wisdom demands that we treat these situations according to the issues at hand. The fact of the matter is that modesty is somewhat culturally defined. I'm not giving license to nudity but there are cultures that missionaries have gone into and the first thing they do is cover up the women as if, all along, the women should have intuitively known that they were being immodest and tempting men who were not in the least tempted by their dress.

Even a modest full length dress would be too much even today for some Arabic men unless the entire body (including the eyes) is covered. Even the form of the woman is too much for some. Simply having a full length dress would be inadequate if it didn't completely obscure every feminine feature.

Making hard and fast rules to fit all cultures everywhere is naive and does not comport with the pursuit of wisdom.

The larger principle is the desire to build up the entire body and to consider the frame of our fellow brothers and sisters - their eyes being merely one thing among many that might cause temptation to sin. It's simply silly to make a law that covers every every culture on the planet or women would, indeed, be covered from head to toe and not merely be wearing a head covering but a full body covering. Nevertheless, if women ever found themselves in a culture that did find their form, in any part, alluring, the Law would not demand of them they cover up everything but love of brother and the willingness to restrict one's own liberty for another may be called for.

Thanks, brother. I was looking for someone who would give us permission to start a Christian nudist club. I think we should get back to nature

Yes, I vote for that.

Coram Deo · #99 (**permalink**) 03-22-2008, 08:27 PM

I am trying to carefully guard my eyes here... I hope you won't think me facetious but I do find those legs very sexy... I am not sure of what man would not drool over those legs and tell they are very sexy and lustful... I could go into further detail but I would be afraid of mentally lusting...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simply_Nikki

I hope this doesn't offend anyone (and if it does, moderators don't hesitate to delete this post) But i just wanted to give an exmample of the types of skirts/dresses I would pick out among all the "other" choices to wear.