Al Martin has a sermon on the need for modest dress among Christian women:

SermonAudio.com - Modesty and the Gospel

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
http://reformedcovenanter.wordpress.com/
The Regulative Principle of Worship: Explained and Applied (Xulon Press)
A Conquered Kingdom: Biblical Civil Government (Reformed Worldview Books)

What does he define as modest? I cannot listen but am interested.

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Pergamum

I think that should be obvious. Do you know immodesty when you see it?

Exactly! But who is you. Immodesty is actually somewhat cultural so it isn't a question that is immaterial. There are certain cultures where it does not tempt men to see women clad in a manner that would be very tempting to Western males.

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Rich
Okinawa, Japan
Deacon, Central Baptist Church, SBC

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Though in my culture, Christian women should dress in a way that does not cause men (in my culture) to lust.

Thanks. Is that what Pastor Al says?

No problem, I plan to listen to it later today; just thought I would post it in advance for the benefit of others. I presumes Pastor Martin would take this view. I think a good Biblical example of this is 1 Cor. 11:2-16, where a lady not wearing a veil was an act of immodesty (she "dishonoured her head"), while in western society today it is not immodest.

Ummmm, there is nothing in that passage that says anything about cultural immodesty. It does however say things like "ordinance" and "light of nature". These are not cultural but biblical. :-)

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Pastor Jerrold H. Lewis. (Dipl. IT; Assc. A; B.Th; M.Th Candidate, PRTS)
Lacombe Free Reformed Church
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The light of nature is referring to long hair, while the word ordinances really means "teachings", yet this is not even referring to the headcovering as Paul says "2. Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. 3. But I want you to understand that", therefore, he changes the subject when he speaks about the headcovering. I agree that the underlying principle in that passage is Biblical, but the literal application has expired. Note that in the next chapter Paul explains that rationale for covering parts of the body: "on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty" (1 Cor. 12:23), thus the reason why a woman's hair was to be covered is because the public display of it in that culture was seen as immodest. Moreover, I have yet to see any modern proponents of head-coverings make their women wear veils which fully cover the hair. A hat which merely covers part of the head, while the lady has two-feet of hair on display, does not conform to what Paul told the Corinthians.

Anyway, I have not got time to go into it further; see my RPW book for more.

Daniel,

Personally I have trouble labeling 1 Cor. 11 as a mere worship practice But more of a headship practice.... I guess it is one view if they believe it is linked to the following sections which describe worship under the Lord Supper sacrament. Difficult to say for sure since there was no chapter or verse distinction until the Geneva Bible.

I do believe it holds out a modesty clause in addition to other passages teachings woman to cover for modesty.. Passages in Genesis, Song, Isaiah 47:2, etc..

Personally I hold to headcoverings for modesty and still believe them to be for the Christian woman today.. I believe for a woman to show her hair is immodest, as hair is very lustful, even for the Western Man today.. I see nothing cultural about it.

I also do believe that the whole head constitute the woman.. So I am a proponent that believes the whole hair is to be covered.

Many of the Early Church Fathers taught that even the face of the woman was to be covered... It is plausible and I could lean that way but I am not going to be dogmatic about the face.

All in all, I believe that a wrap that covers the hair is required and would be closer to a muslim shayla or a hijab head scarf aleast according to my Hebrew and Greek study of the words.

I am also not for hats which is a protected head gear for the cold and not a sign of submission to headship.

As for my wife.... Currently she covers in worship and she understands my position.. I have been given her space to study my work and come to it on her own without "Lording It Over Her".. Husbands must dwell with their wives in Understanding. A time may come when I politely ask her to cover even if it is not her conviction for her husband but that is not today... Time and Space must be given..


Here are a few photos describing what I meant according to my Hebrew and Greek word studies....

Here is a Christian woman from England around the year 800 A.D.



Here is a Modern Day Christian woman from the Middle East, I believe from Israel.

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Michael Daniels
Reformed, RPCNA
Denton, Maryland

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He's talking about the ten things that are magnets to men's eyes..

1. Dresses or skirts w/ slits to the knee or above..

2. Dresses, skirts, jeans that hug the buttocks

3. Upper garmets that hug the breast

4. unbuttoned blouses that have one button left covering the breasts, and if you lean over your breasts are exposed.

5. Sleeveless blouses or long arm holes that men sitting behind you can look and see in your shirt or dress..

6. low rise skirts and pants that barely cover the buttocks

7. See through clothing

8. Skirts & dresses that are so short that if you move around shows your undergarmets, and everyone can see them.

9. Pants, slacks, jeans that hug the buttocks, hips and crotch..

10. Bared middrift..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

Well for me and others men I have talked to, say that the calf between the knee and ankle are lustful and are magnets to men's eyes....

The same for the hair... The Song of Solomon talks about how hair is very lustful and erotic.. Again for me and other men I have talk to agree that hair is a magnet for men's eyes and can be a problem for us men.....

Coram Deo;

While I understand that men can lust over all of these things, as a woman, it is a HUGE burden to carry and to know that no matter what I wear, I am being held accountable for being responsible for that man's lust. Where is the man's responsibility for his heart before God in this?

I know men who lust more over women who are fully covered modestly, thinking about what they can't see and what these women ARE covering, and mentally undressing her fully clothed body..but as a woman, I have no control over a man's lustful thoughts, no matter what I'm wearing.

Granted I can wear things *I* feel are not going to cause a man to lust, but that doesn't mean he's NOT going to lust anyway, if that is what's in his heart to do.

Should men and women live in totally seperate societies so that men will never have to deal with their lustful thoughts before God? That to me would be THE ONLY way to prevent men from lusting over women at all.

Also keep in mind that prostitution, rape, and the like are still problems in societies where women are fully covered (head to toe).

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--chRis
Psalm 115:1

Christopher Reeder
Husband to Kara, Father to Abigail (7), Caleb (6), Grace (4 1/2), Zoë (2 1/2), Elijah (1) and Baby Girl due 8/6/08

Member: Pilgrim Presbyterian Church (OPC), Raleigh, NC

Excellent point, Bobbi.

Mat 5:28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Jesus spoke to the greater sin. I don't recall him directly condemning a woman's clothing.

I think the modesty issue is similar to the "decent and good order" issue. The key is to avoid unnecessary distractions, not prevent another from sinning.

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R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

I agree that it is also Man's responsibility to avoid lust... But the two issues I brought out I believe have direct bearing within scripture and what scripture describes as modest for the woman...

We have on the board been over this before and I am not really wanting to get into it very deeply right now but I believe Isaiah 47:2 describes modesty for the woman by the covering of the hair and the entire leg. The Song describes woman covered modestly with a veil over their head and in Genesis the Rebekah covers her head with a covering before seeing a man she had never met before..

In other passages it talks about the veil being removed from the woman as punishment since it was lewd to be uncovered...

So when men have problems with certain areas of the body and the scripture describes them as covered and to uncover is to show forth nakedness then I believe I am correct that they deal with modesty and it does rest there on the woman but it does not take away mans responsibilities to not lust after woman...

Both Woman and Man must be guarded when dealing with modesty. For themselves and for each other....

To add one more thought to what Bobbi and Vic have already said:

Modesty for a woman is not only in clothing, but in attitude. I have seen fully clothed women drive men to near insanity with their words and their eyes. If a woman is honest before the Lord, she will be careful not only with her dress, but with her attitude.

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J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

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One of the Christian satire sites had a goof ad for "Emerjeans: the missional fashion of the emerging church."

It read: "You Christian girls know where those boys are looking, so why not tell them about Jesus while they're there? Meet them where they're at." With embroidery on the rear pocket it advertised: "Five skin-tight Gospel messages: turn your eyes upon Jesus; Jesus is my boyfriend; looking fine for Jesus; baby got Jesus; or Jesus, like Buddha, only better! Available in Daisy Dukes."

Obviously satire. But . . . not all that far off the mark unfortunately.

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