Thread: Loving Your Enemies; Loving Your Brother

Nikki I don't think forgiveness is optional for us on repentance; we pray 'forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors'. Our forgiveness of others is not conditioned on their repentance, but on God's forgiveness of us.
After David had committed adultery with Bathsheba, killed Uriah, and lost an innocent child through his sin, we have his words recorded 'against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned.' Other people's sin even against us is primarily between them and God. What is between us and God is (amazingly) forgiveness.

The additional and unsolicited thoughts of this woman at 4:30 AM are that you at 1:30 PST should go to bed and get some sleep if you can :-)

Incidentally, I voted that in my experience it is much harder to forgive a brother or sister in Christ. I think this is because one has trusted them so much more in most cases, they can hurt us more.

I agree with Heidi. Forgiving an unbeliever I have never had a problem with at all (at least conceptually; working it out in practice as sometimes been a little difficult) whilst forgiving a brother or sister can be one of the hardest things in the world, for me requiring sometimes many years of struggle and bitterness before I even want to forgive them (see my recent prayer thread, for example). Being angry at an unbeliever for sinning against you is like jumping into a lion enclosure and complaining about being bitten; what do you expect? Do you become personally angry with the lion? Being sinned against by a brother or sister is like, well, being sinned against by a brother or sister.

Nikki, Christian forgiveness is an act of the heart and does not require the repentance of the person who wronged you. Stephen would be a good example in Acts 7:60 as the crowd was stoning him to death " Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

In practice, it's sometimes more difficult to forgive a brother or sister. When I am confronted with a lack of forgiveness towards a Christian I remind myself of my sinfulness and that my unforgiving heart brings no glory to God while looking negatively upon a soul for whom our Savior died.

I've heard (biblical) repentance as having three aspects:

1) confession
2) forsaking
3) restitution/reconciliation

Confession would mean to admit it, before God and before men.

Forsaking would mean endeavoring, by God's grace, to give the sin or pattern up.

Restitution/reconciliation would mean doing as much as within your power to do to make the situation "whole."

Once these are done, there can be complete peace with God over it.

There can even be peace within the repented person even though others affected by his sin have not forgiven him.

In our fallen nature, it is easy to rationalize that repentance is merely expressing regret and wanting to "move on."

But that is not biblical repentance.

Sometimes that is only a selfish attempt to justify oneself, protect one's pride and not have to engage the hard work of relying on God to forsake and make restitution/reconciliation.

We might even say the willingness to suffer, deny self to forsake and make it right "proves out" the repentance.

So, for example, if a high public official says they "regret" making the "mistake" of lying under oath (to protect their own lying and immoral behavior) but now want those under his authority to recognize that they have a "private life" and want everyone affected to "move on," it is not biblical repentance at all.

Why?

Because the motive of confession needs to be first grief toward wronging God or a brother (not concern for one's self pride). Because that leads toward reliance on God's grace and practically doing the hard work of ordering one's life to avoid the sin, being willing to suffer and deny oneself to forsake it. It also means doing the hard work of dealing with the consequences to make it right, with an attitude of willingness to suffering or self deny to make it right.

Jesus was without sin, yet He modeled the suffering and self denial that underlies it perfectly for us. This is why Christianity is so different from anything else in this world. There really can be forgiveness of sin, there really can be redemption, there really can be peace over one's sin- and by God's grace there is.

(If that isn't good news, I don't know what is)

Some sins are private, and are really against God but don't involve another person. Others involve other people. Others affect many people because of one's authority or influence over them.

If a person has repented and the persons offended or affected will not forgive, my understanding is the repented person is completely free, the problem is with the other who will not forgive.

And, we know, God always forgives us because of Christ.

Originally Posted by Simply_Nikki

Second question. Is repentance necessary for forgiveness between humans? I always hear different answers to this question. It seems like God requires repentance (though he grants this ability to us by his grace) in order to receive forgiveness since He does not forgive everyone for their sins unconditionally without repentance. Should we do likewise and forgive those who have repented? Or should we forgive unconditionally whether repentance is there or not? Or, the third option, should we just be willing to forgive when/if someone repents but not necessarily offer forgiveness if they do not (i.e. if someone asks for forgiveness we should unconditionally grant it to them, but if they don't you're not obligated to)?

It all depends upon how you understand the word, 'repentance'. The Bible in many places teaches we are never to hold a grudge.

Lev 19:17,18 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 ¶Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

How do you rid yourself of a grudge? You forgive!

The Bible in many places teaches we are never to 'payback' sins against us.

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil.

From the perspective of those who have sinned against us, when we refuse to payback evil for evil we have forgiven them. (Had mercy on them)

But, Jesus also says...

Luke 17:3,4 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Let's take a woman who has been beaten by her husband and has left him and now resides in a safe place. Is she allowed to hold a grudge against him? No. Is she allowed to pay him back for what he has done? No. Is she required to return home? NOT UNLESS HE REPENTS! However, if there is godly repentance, then she is required to forgive and return home AS IF NOTHING HAD HAPPENED!

True and complete forgiveness is forgetting the sin entirely.

Jer 31:34 for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Let's take a drunkard. Pro 23:21 says that the drunkard shall come to poverty. It is important that the drunkard come to poverty, not only to demonstrate God's justice, but so that he can become broken before the Lord. If we 'forgive' the drunkard by enabling him to continue in his drunkenness without the consequences, we are not honoring God, or loving the drunkard. If the drunkard has godly repentance, then we can seek to alleviate his suffering. We are then required to treat him as if he had never been a drunk.

IOW, there is 'forgiveness' (not holding a grudge and not paying back evil for evil), and then there is 'forgiveness' (remembering the sin no more and going back to the exact same relationship you had before).

The Geneva Bible on Luke 17:3:

Our reprehensions must be just and proceed from love and charity.

To be quite honest, I find it much harder to forgive a brother or sister in the Lord who has wronged me. It is far easier to forgive someone who is an unbeliever, because God has not given them the conviction that He has granted to believers. It is easier to overlook their offenses and have mercy.....but I have a hard time forgiving those with whom I had close fellowship with. This is a weakness, I admit, and I pray that the Lord will teach me to forgive unconditionally.

You know, in some ways I think David felt the same way.....when his enemies were those with whom he ate bread with (which showed close fellowship). It seemed he was more deeply grieved that they had turned and became his enemies, than those who were far off enemies.

Originally Posted by Scott1

I've heard (biblical) repentance as having three aspects:

1) confession
2) forsaking
3) restitution/reconciliation

Confession would mean to admit it, before God and before men.

Forsaking would mean endeavoring, by God's grace, to give the sin or pattern up.

Restitution/reconciliation would mean doing as much as within your power to do to make the situation "whole."

Thanks for this. I teach in a public school and never thought about this theologically in such excellent terms (although I thought about it in general and since "forgiveness" is a theological issue then I suppose I HAVE thought about it 'theologically' ... albeit, not in such precise terms. That's why I like this board. It's giving me "words" for understandings I've come to hold dear.

In my class for the last 15 years or so, for a generation of kids at least, I've called it "Making it right".

ha ha ha I wonder how it would "go over" if I started using "repenting" instead. I should probably stick to "making it right".

Thank you, though for ... the words!!!

-----Added 11/28/2009 at 09:46:27 EST-----

I voted that it's harder to forgive a stranger. Why? A brother or sister in Christ... think about it ... if they and we are truly a brother or sister we eventually get around to making things right with one another and if not we learn to exercise the fact that it's the glory of a man to overlook an offense.

But, with a non-believer, the point might be well made that they are pagans and we forgive them as such but when you think about it even in doing so you're still left with an unresolved issue. If the issue were severe enough to actually be considered by you after you've dealt in private with God as an offense against you, you leave it with God but ... it's still there ... waiting for His judgement and for Him to make it right since that's all we can do.

The thing is ... and now I'm starting to contradict myself scripture does say "love" your enemies ... from experience I've seen how we don't need to conjure up any love for them. It doesn't come automatically to us. For me, as I started to pray those impreccatory prayers (not sure I spelled that correctly), "rain fire and brimstone" on my enemy type prayers that David prayed, then I found those prayers started to become "she's going to hell God and I'm happy about it" then "I'm sorry God" then "She needs your mercy God and I don't have that kind of love" then "You have that love" then "Grant me that love" then "Just show her what you've shown me ... I didn't deserve it either" .... oh ... I'm rambling, aren't I PBers? Sorry.

The thing is the women who tried to ax me at work terrified me, and now I pity them. I saw one in the news recently, saw her mug shot and was at first thought HAPPY (I'm sorry I thought that way) but it showed me that the pain is still there. God will eventually change my heart about it all but it's right that I should long for justice, His justice. I rest in that but in the end He's the one that's her judge and all I can do is pray that He'll call her to Himself and if it please Him that maybe she might one day speak to me about God's goodness to her in regards to it all.

When I think about being wronged by a believer there's none of that. Maybe I haven't been THAT wronged by a believer. Maybe that's just it. I'd wonder if someone were truly a believer if they wronged me that much and then I'd pray for them like I would that old enemy who I trust God is dealing with on a daily level, hopefully to call them to repentence.

In the end, I'm just left with the fact that sin is sin and it doesn't matter who it was ... it all hurts and the answer for sin is the same.


Rambling ... will I get in trouble for that, Randy?

Sue B.

Two reasons it may be more of a challenge to forgive a brother who has wronged us:

1. They should know better.

2. They are closer to us, and therefore capable of inflicting much more painful harm.

My closest and dearest brother in the Lord did great harm to me and my family, (Psa 55:12-14) For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: (13) But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. (14) We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.

He scammed us out of over $30k and demolished a business endeavor that we had invested the entirety of our holdings in, which left us financially desolate and heart-broken. We have yet to recover fully from the financial ruin, even after 3 years, and the emotional toll has been immense. For nearly 20 years he was my closest friend, with whom I daily took counsel of the things of the Lord, and he did this to facilitate leaving his wife and 4 children for another woman.

No professed unbeliever would ever have close enough or trusted enough to have wrought such havoc upon us. And forgiveness has been difficult. At this point it is that I have determined not to hold a grudge and forgo justice. No repentance has ever been offered. His wife and children suffered much more than we did. Sorrow upon sorrow. But God is good, and these things are decreed for our refinement.

Originally Posted by Brad

I have determined not to hold a grudge and forgo justice.

Dude! What makes you think he's a brother after all that? Justice is a good thing. Let justice do it's work! MAYBE God will use man's justice as a means to reveal His mercy!

A brother or sister is harder to forgive. My expectations are higher for a fellow believer than for a pagan.

Originally Posted by Susanna

Originally Posted by Brad

I have determined not to hold a grudge and forgo justice.

Dude! What makes you think he's a brother after all that? Justice is a good thing. Let justice do it's work! MAYBE God will use man's justice as a means to reveal His mercy!

I agree. Not holding a grudge is good. Not holding him accountable is not.

The Lord has put the civil magistrate over us for a reason.

Originally Posted by Timothy William

I agree with Heidi. Forgiving an unbeliever I have never had a problem with at all (at least conceptually; working it out in practice as sometimes been a little difficult) whilst forgiving a brother or sister can be one of the hardest things in the world, for me requiring sometimes many years of struggle and bitterness before I even want to forgive them (see my recent prayer thread, for example). Being angry at an unbeliever for sinning against you is like jumping into a lion enclosure and complaining about being bitten; what do you expect? Do you become personally angry with the lion? Being sinned against by a brother or sister is like, well, being sinned against by a brother or sister.

So true! As the old song goes, "You always hurt the one you love/ The one you shouldn't hurt at all."

I think another reason why this is true is that we are thinking that, if I show that I have forgiven this unbeliever, it may be used in his or her conversion. But forgiving my brother or sister, well, that can wait. I think this is a skewed way of thinking about it because 1) forgiveness most often in Scripture is dealing with our brethren in Christ and 2) in Luke 17, our lack of forgiveness can cause our brother or sister (or us) to stumble.

Another reason is because we expect the lost to sin against us. We expect our brethren to act like...our brethren. Especially those we look up to the most. I find that the best cure for this is seeing my own sin for what it is. When I focus on dealing with my own sin as I ought, I know that I am forgiven much. Then I am in the position to forgive much.

-----Added 11/28/2009 at 10:36:40 EST-----

Originally Posted by Brad

My closest and dearest brother in the Lord did great harm to me and my family

No repentance has ever been offered.

Has this caused the man to undergo any church discipline? Is this a case of a David-like sin that is causing his vitality to be drained and his bones to grow old, as David spoke of in Psalm 32?

-----Added 11/28/2009 at 10:44:39 EST-----

Originally Posted by Susanna

Originally Posted by Brad

I have determined not to hold a grudge and forgo justice.

Dude! What makes you think he's a brother after all that? Justice is a good thing. Let justice do it's work! MAYBE God will use man's justice as a means to reveal His mercy!

But the question isn't "he sinned so greatly, he must not be a brother" but "he has not yet repented, how long can one remain unrepentant and not be a Christian?" If he's been excommunicated, then he's no longer to be thought of as a brother, right?

How would 1 Cor. 6 apply here?

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

My pastor posted an excellent blog post a couple days ago on this very subject of forgiving our brethren:

Whose Wounds? Reformed Baptist Fellowship

Imagine for a moment a frightening scenario. Let’s imagine that a man has entered my home and taken from me that which is most precious to me. In his wickedness he has killed my wife and children. He shot me and left me for dead. In the weeks that follow this man is arrested, tried, and imprisoned. Now let us suppose that this man is solidly converted while in jail. He corresponds with me. He asks my forgiveness. Now let us imagine that this man is one day released from jail. He wants to come to my church and here me preach from my wheelchair. Here is the question—whose wounds do I see when I look upon this man?

The scenario I have laid out has more or less transpired numerous times in church history. I think of what it must have been like for the church in Jerusalem to welcome Saul of Tarsus. Welcome the man that have ravaged the church? Welcome the man that had bound them? Punished them? The man who sought to compel them to blaspheme? And yet when Barnabas could convince the apostles and the brethren that Saul was a new man in Christ, we read that he was “with” the church. The word mean ‘among’. His desire was to ‘join’ the disciples. Not simply attend the preaching—he wanted to join. To be cemented to, to cleave to. That could only happen if there was a mutual relationship. Some of the brethren who welcomed him into the church bore the scars, physically and emotionally of his persecution. Some of them had lost husbands, wives, fathers, and mothers to his cruelty. And yet, he joined them. The question for these brethren was—whose wounds would they see when they looked at this man.

Perhaps you have a brother or sister in Christ who has done you harm. They may even be in your own family. Every time you see them you could be reminded of your wounds….or you could be reminded of the wounds of another.

You see when the church in Jerusalem saw Saul they focused not on the wounds he had caused them, but the wounds his sins, and their sins had inflicted upon Jesus. When we behold His wounds and not our wounds we are able to love and forgive and fellowship with sinners—even sinners who have sinned against us. So the question, my friend, is this—whose wounds do you behold?

Jim Savastio, Pastor
Reformed Baptist Church of Louisville

Miss Nikki,

I have battled long and hard over the relationship between repentance and forgiveness. I will say this, after having come from the "other side" that wanted to hold to too exacting a definition of forgiveness, some godly men reminded me of the Creator/Creature distinction. In other words, while the Lord God Creator has the right to withhold forgiveness from those who have not yet repented, we, as creatures who have transgressed His standard and sinned against others, have no such right or grounding to do so (insofar as it encourages begrudgery, bitterness, etc.). That being said, forgiveness proper, in its fullest sense, also includes reconciliation. We will not always have that here.

I will leave you with a quote from John Angell James that I believe captures my sentiments on the matter:

2. Are we to forgive a person—if he will not confess his fault?

Forgiveness has various degrees, and in the fullest and most complete sense of the term it is not required of us, until confession is made. God does not forgive us unless we acknowledge our sins. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Christ makes the duty of forgiveness dependent upon the repentance of the offender. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and comes back to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."

But still there are certain duties to be performed towards him even in this obdurate and unrelenting state of mind. We should in the exercise of meekness and gentleness endeavor to convince him of his wrong-doing in the manner laid down in the former essay. We are not, on discovering his impenitence and obduracy, at once to turn away from him in anger and disgust, and leave him to himself, and thus allow sin to lie upon him. And even after all suitable expostulations have been used, and he still remains stubbornly bent upon making no concession, we are not to allow ourselves to cherish enmity and malice towards him; we must harbor no ill-will towards him; we must pray for him—and be willing to do any good to him. Kindness shown to an impenitent offender, in a way that will not seem to connive at his sin, or encourage a repetition of it—may melt his hard heart. This is what the apostle calls heaping coals of fire on his head, and by the agony of a guilty conscience, rendered more susceptible by your forgiveness, melting down the cold, hard substance of his iron heart.

Here we act like God, who though he does not receive impenitent offenders to his favor, or bestow upon them the blessings of his children, still continues to them many providential comforts. And for what purpose? The apostle declares this, when he says, "Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, restraint, and patience—not recognizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?" This is extraordinarily beautiful—the goodness of God, instead of turning its back upon the unrepenting sinner and retiring from him in wrath and disgust, turns towards him its lovely countenance, and even takes hold of his hand to lead him to repentance. Here is our pattern. We cannot receive the offender to our favor until he has confessed his fault; but we can be kind to him, and like our Heavenly Father take him by the hand and lead him to a better state of mind. He is not even in his sullen obduracy, to be an object of our hatred and revenge.

P.S. - Here are some threads where I struggled and work through the subject:

Should we forgive those who do not repent?
The Relationship Between Repentance and Forgiveness

Originally Posted by Edward

Originally Posted by Susanna

Originally Posted by Brad

I have determined not to hold a grudge and forgo justice.

Dude! What makes you think he's a brother after all that? Justice is a good thing. Let justice do it's work! MAYBE God will use man's justice as a means to reveal His mercy!

I agree. Not holding a grudge is good. Not holding him accountable is not.

The Lord has put the civil magistrate over us for a reason.

Well, his being a Reformed Baptist, whose Pastor retired and Church dissolved, Church discipline is a tad problematic. What Church or denomination would I take it to? (Ain't autonomy convenient?) I called his Pastor, who informed me of his retirement, and recommended that I pursue recourse before the court of unbelievers. I started to do that, but the realization that doing so would force his abandoned family out of their home caused me to balk, and the 6 month deadline for perfecting of (lawsuit over) a mechanic's lien expired, and I just let it go.

The outright cold-hearted betrayal by someone we had loved so dearly was painful enough. Further conflict was beyond my ability to endure. I have not heard a word from him since, and that has been a relief. I haven't had to examine too closely the reality of my forgiveness. As it is, I can say it was a hard lesson learned, pray for him and his family, and let the wounds heal. Having to interact with him would stir up passions probably best left alone. The flesh is a vengeful beast. The Lord will deal with him one way or another, hopefully by granting him repentance.

Dude! What makes you think he's a brother after all that?

That's not my call to make. He professes to be a Christian. I am to treat him as such, which is in some ways harsher than if he were a rank unbeliever according to scripture. I am told to have nothing to do with him.

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Brad, wow...

What a horrible situation to be in!!! So the church just dissolved and the sheep are left without a shepherd???

This sounds too heavy to get advice online for. I will be praying for your friend and for you.

Originally Posted by MarieP

My pastor posted an excellent blog post a couple days ago on this very subject of forgiving our brethren:

Whose Wounds? Reformed Baptist Fellowship

Imagine for a moment a frightening scenario. Let’s imagine that a man has entered my home and taken from me that which is most precious to me. In his wickedness he has killed my wife and children. He shot me and left me for dead. In the weeks that follow this man is arrested, tried, and imprisoned. Now let us suppose that this man is solidly converted while in jail. He corresponds with me. He asks my forgiveness. Now let us imagine that this man is one day released from jail. He wants to come to my church and here me preach from my wheelchair. Here is the question—whose wounds do I see when I look upon this man?

The scenario I have laid out has more or less transpired numerous times in church history. I think of what it must have been like for the church in Jerusalem to welcome Saul of Tarsus. Welcome the man that have ravaged the church? Welcome the man that had bound them? Punished them? The man who sought to compel them to blaspheme? And yet when Barnabas could convince the apostles and the brethren that Saul was a new man in Christ, we read that he was “with” the church. The word mean ‘among’. His desire was to ‘join’ the disciples. Not simply attend the preaching—he wanted to join. To be cemented to, to cleave to. That could only happen if there was a mutual relationship. Some of the brethren who welcomed him into the church bore the scars, physically and emotionally of his persecution. Some of them had lost husbands, wives, fathers, and mothers to his cruelty. And yet, he joined them. The question for these brethren was—whose wounds would they see when they looked at this man.

Perhaps you have a brother or sister in Christ who has done you harm. They may even be in your own family. Every time you see them you could be reminded of your wounds….or you could be reminded of the wounds of another.

You see when the church in Jerusalem saw Saul they focused not on the wounds he had caused them, but the wounds his sins, and their sins had inflicted upon Jesus. When we behold His wounds and not our wounds we are able to love and forgive and fellowship with sinners—even sinners who have sinned against us. So the question, my friend, is this—whose wounds do you behold?

Jim Savastio, Pastor
Reformed Baptist Church of Louisville

Wow. I'm blown away by that. So often, I recall what I've done to the Lord Jesus Christ, the sins of mine that He bore on that tree... But there's another story.

The person whose picture is my current avatar is my mother at age 19. She married my father 3 years later and had me a couple of years after that. My parents were alkies and my mother, in her fifties, descended into an organic brain syndrome from which she did not recover. My father, probably the cruelest person I've ever known, one day came home from work and, in cold blood, beat her horribly. He was not prosecuted; the police were not called (to my persistent shame). My mother died of her injuries, and it was all wiped under the table.

Many years later (2003), my father was in a nursing home. I didn't visit him often because he still made me sick, but I did come late one afternoon. We never had much to say to each other, but at one point during this visit, he looked at me, stared and said, "You look more like your mother every time I see you." I stopped and thought, what could he mean by that? I decided to take the high road and said, "You know, I think that's the only nice thing you've ever said to me." He turned his head away and said, "It probably is."

Forgiving myself for not having called the police for help for my mom and for being less than candid with hospital personnel who asked for her history has not yet happened.

I prayed with and for my father in the nursing home when he was dying, but I've no doubt he was jeering at me even as I did so. It's a moot point now: he went where he's spending eternity in February, 2003. I'm still praying to forgive him, for he never admitted he was wrong to do what he did.

My own sins loom so large in front of me that, over time, other people's sins and affronts and offenses have become like tiny gnats that don't even bother me. Who am I to be offended by them? No one but a fellow sinner - but one who's so much looking forward to that day when eternal life (not the death that present sin is) will dawn.

No one tells you, when you begin your Christian walk, that sometimes your own sins, against your Lord and Savior and against others, will be what bring you down the most.

Margaret

No one tells you, when you begin your Christian walk, that sometimes your own sins, against your Lord and Savior and against others, will be what bring you down the most.

Margaret, I know.

If it's any comfort, God's grace has obviously brought something new out of that terrible situation -- you.

Amen, Margaret.

What a horrible situation to be in!!! So the church just dissolved and the sheep are left without a shepherd???

Didn't mean to derail the thread, but yes, although it was not much of a Church by the time he retired. My take is that Church discipline is pretty pointless among congregationalists anyway.

Wow, some of you guys have been through so much and demonstrate such Christian maturity. I'm so grateful I'm here. I hope I'll grow in such graces ... well ... DV, not through such trials but such is life, no?

Thank you, Margaret for saying that it's our own sin that brings us down most. I had to ask myself if that were true of me. I appreciate the reminder to check myself.

Originally Posted by Brad

Dude! What makes you think he's a brother after all that?

That's not my call to make. He professes to be a Christian. I am to treat him as such,

So he's not a member of a church, refuses to submit himself to the brethren, he evidences no fruit in his life, he's behaved shamelessly toward his family and towards you, and you assume that he's a brother in Christ because he said and did a few things years ago?

Does failure to hold one who has defrauded us responsible for his actions make us morally culpable when he defrauds his next victim?

I would likely have done what you did - accept the loss as a very expensive lesson. But just because I would have done the same, I'm not sure that it is the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by Edward

Originally Posted by Brad

Dude! What makes you think he's a brother after all that?

That's not my call to make. He professes to be a Christian. I am to treat him as such,

So he's not a member of a church, refuses to submit himself to the brethren, he evidences no fruit in his life, he's behaved shamelessly toward his family and towards you, and you assume that he's a brother in Christ because he said and did a few things years ago?

Does failure to hold one who has defrauded us responsible for his actions make us morally culpable when he defrauds his next victim?

I would likely have done what you did - accept the loss as a very expensive lesson. But just because I would have done the same, I'm not sure that it is the right thing to do.

What about this?:

1Co 6:1-8 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? (2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. (5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? (6) But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. (7) Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? (8) Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Emphasis mine.... Obviously Paul knew Christians would defraud one another, and said, by the Holy Spirit, that it was better for us to take wrong and suffer being defrauded.

Originally Posted by Brad

What about this?:

1Co 6:1-8 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? (2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. (5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? (6) But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. (7) Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? (8) Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Emphasis mine.... Obviously Paul knew Christians would defraud one another, and said, by the Holy Spirit, that it was better for us to take wrong and suffer being defrauded.

First, don't confuse how you deal with a brother with how you deal with the reprobate. The pattern for dealing with a brother is set out in Matthew 18:15-17. And if he refuses to hear the church, treat him like a reprobate. The verse you quoted doesn't apply here.

Second, We're both PCA. The Westminster Confession is our subscriptional document. And it teaches us: "God, the supreme Lord and King of all the world, has ordained civil magistrates, to be, under Him, over the people, for His own glory, and the public good: and, to this end, has armed them with the power of the sword, for the defence and encouragement of them that are good, and for the punishment of evil doers."

So again, in summary, if he submits himself to the church, he should be judged there; if not, he should be judged by the civil magistrate.

There are two parts to the answering of this question.

1) Christ requires us to forgive those who wrong us, which is implied in his command that we love our enemies, do good to those who hate us, bless those who curse us, and pray for those who abuse us.

2) However, apart from the offender's repentance, which Christ also requires as taught in Luke 17:3, there will never be a restoration of the relationship between the individuals.

-----Added 11/28/2009 at 02:46:19 EST-----

Originally Posted by Edward

Originally Posted by Brad

What about this?:

1Co 6:1-8 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? (2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. (5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? (6) But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. (7) Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? (8) Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Emphasis mine.... Obviously Paul knew Christians would defraud one another, and said, by the Holy Spirit, that it was better for us to take wrong and suffer being defrauded.

First, don't confuse how you deal with a brother with how you deal with the reprobate. The pattern for dealing with a brother is set out in Matthew 18:15-17. And if he refuses to hear the church, treat him like a reprobate. The verse you quoted doesn't apply here.

Second, We're both PCA. The Westminster Confession is our subscriptional document. And it teaches us: "God, the supreme Lord and King of all the world, has ordained civil magistrates, to be, under Him, over the people, for His own glory, and the public good: and, to this end, has armed them with the power of the sword, for the defence and encouragement of them that are good, and for the punishment of evil doers."

So again, in summary, if he submits himself to the church, he should be judged there; if not, he should be judged by the civil magistrate.

Ed, the confession recognizes that the civil magistrate has the power to judge evil men, but this has no bearing upon whether or not a Christian is obligated to take another to court. We live according to the rules and laws of a different kingdom, and and different master, when it comes to our responses in matters such as these.

I know of a PCA in the area who took a Christian contractor to court over some breach, and who justified it on some fine distinction, probably even finding warrant for their actions in the confession somewhere. They had a Roman Catholic judge who thankfully, although he ended up having to rule in their favor, rebuked them in the courtroom for shaming Christ and the Church by bringing another professing Christian before the civil courts. His head was clear on the matter, whereas the protestant party was attempting to find justification for their actions by way of a rationalizing sophistry.

I voted both. The people who have hurt me the most have been the people I expected the most from; family and brothers and sisters in the Lord.

I think that many times I intermingle the ideas of forgiveness and reconciliation. I do not believe that reconcilliation is always wise.

I don't generally have much trouble forgiving people. I like to think it's because I have a positive attitude and don't take things personally, but more probably it's because I have ADHD and forget about it after a short time.

Either way, I thank God for it, because I have enough other failings without that.

Jonathan, it's undoubtedly better to overlook something if at all possible and not even consider it an offense; and some people do find that easier than others. I think Nikki's question is more about the sort of major injustice that can't be overlooked, though? -- as evidenced by some of the replies (not the sort of minor things one is likely to encounter in a message board disagreement etc). In this case it's not a matter of people simply taking things too personally or having a negative spirit (though I at least, could improve greatly in such areas: even though I'm also easily distracted :-).
I actually find the 'overlookable' offenses easier to deal with in brothers and sisters -- probably again, because one trusts them more.

Originally Posted by a mere housewife

Jonathan, it's undoubtedly better to overlook something if at all possible and not even consider it an offense; and some people do find that easier than others. I think Nikki's question is more about the sort of major injustice that can't be overlooked, though? -- as evidenced by some of the replies (not the sort of minor things one is likely to encounter in a message board disagreement etc). In this case it's not a matter of people simply taking things too personally or having a negative spirit (though I at least, could improve greatly in such areas: even though I'm also easily distracted :-).
I actually find the 'overlookable' offenses easier to deal with in brothers and sisters -- probably again, because one trusts them more.

Same here, which is why I voted that way. I really haven't had any "major" offenses.

Originally Posted by Simply_Nikki

Just wondering,

Do you think it is more difficult to love an enemy that has wrong you or a brother or sister in the Lord that has wronged you?
If the wrongs were similar, the hypocrisy of the believer would be harder to take.


(I do not know how to make a poll for the life of me, otherwise this would have been in polling format ).

Second question. Is repentance necessary for forgiveness between humans?
The example and explicit commands of our Lord is we, somehow by His grace, forgive- not condition it upon their repentance.

(This is in line with "love the sinner, hate the sin." We cannot possible do it, only call out in our weakness to God to help us do what we cannot do, and in faith, believe, with God, it can happen.


I always hear different answers to this question. It seems like God requires repentance (though he grants this ability to us by his grace) in order to receive forgiveness since He does not forgive everyone for their sins unconditionally without repentance.
The way I understand this is God will not hold the sins to condemn us because of Christ (His righteousness is imputed to us).

But I think there still will be an accounting because all men, even believers, will appear before the judgment seat of Christ. It's hard to know what rewards and losses will occur there because Scripture does not give us much to go on. But, it would seem the less sin, the better, the more forgiveness, the better, the more repentance the better (NOT for salvation, but for other things at the judgment seat of Christ).

Even believers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ to give account of their lives- sin and all.

Should we do likewise and forgive those who have repented? Or should we forgive unconditionally whether repentance is there or not? Or, the third option, should we just be willing to forgive when/if someone repents but not necessarily offer forgiveness if they do not (i.e. if someone asks for forgiveness we should unconditionally grant it to them, but if they don't you're not obligated to)?

Forgive, I think yes.

But what do we mean by that. There is a lot of things to consider. We don't want to enable someone to sin further, we don't want to allow others (or ourself) to be harmed. We might not allow someone a privilege or trust they had before.

All this, yet we can still forgive them in a sense of not holding it against them (somehow).

Just things rolling around in my head at 12:21 in the morning PST of course .

-----Added 11/28/2009 at 02:26:14 EST-----

Oh I figured out how to make a poll yay

So, if someone owes me $500 and doesn't pay me, I can forgive them for not paying it but still act to try to collect it. Later, I may also need to forgive them all the money (and not hold a grudge). I can still forgive them but politely decline request for another loan. I can still forgive them but not put them in a position of trust over money unless and until they prove themselves faithful.

Maybe the application is off here and sorry if that is the case- it's difficult to know the extent or context of application.

Forgiveness does not mean there will not be consequences (and further chances for the person to sin by denial, avoidance, or compounding the original sin).

[quote=KMK;724343]

Originally Posted by Simply_Nikki

Let's take a woman who has been beaten by her husband and has left him and now resides in a safe place. Is she allowed to hold a grudge against him? No. Is she allowed to pay him back for what he has done? No. Is she required to return home? NOT UNLESS HE REPENTS! However, if there is godly repentance, then she is required to forgive and return home AS IF NOTHING HAD HAPPENED!

True and complete forgiveness is forgetting the sin entirely.

Jer 31:34 for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I was with you until this part. So I guess this changes my opinion. I was thinking that I can forgive without going back. But if total forgiveness means complete restoration of the relationship, then am I really capable of forgiving to that extent? With such a big pill to swallow, it seems to me that the following is true?...

1. If a person is truly repentant, then God has brought repentance to their heart.
2. If I am to truly forgive, completely and unconditionally, then does God need to also touch my heart to grant forgiveness?

-----Added 11/30/2009 at 10:09:40 EST-----

Originally Posted by Joshua

P.S. - Here are some threads where I struggled and work through the subject:

Should we forgive those who do not repent?
The Relationship Between Repentance and Forgiveness

I am not yet allowed to "Thank you", but Thank you just the same. I will check these out.

-----Added 11/30/2009 at 10:14:37 EST-----

[quote=Galatians220;724416]

Originally Posted by MarieP

No one tells you, when you begin your Christian walk, that sometimes your own sins, against your Lord and Savior and against others, will be what bring you down the most.

Margaret

Margaret, thank you for sharing. This is so true and very humbling. I will go to sleep thinking about this.

The main thing I'm hung up on is the passage in Luke 17 that some have already mentioned in this thread.

3Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."

To me it seems like rebuke is what is first required in a situation between fellow believers. You confront the person of his sin against you letting him or her know of the violation. It then says "if" he repents forgive him. And that no matter how many times he commits an offense against you you are obligated to forgive him "if" he repents. It doesn't say anything about if he doesn't.

And if it is the case, taking into account the whole counsel of scripture, that one must forgive no matter what regardless of whether they repent or not, then why does this passage even mention repentance in the process of forgiveness?

Why wouldn't it just say.. if your brother commits a sin against you forgive him? Its kind of confusing.

"The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies; probably because they are generally the same people."

I have never had trouble forgiving a brother who repents. But I do believe repentance is required before forgiveness is required. We pray that God would forgive our sins, in the same way that we forgive others. God will not forgive us if we do not have repentance. Jesus stated that we should forgive even seven times if the person offending repents.

That does not mean we seek vengeance, or stop doing good to our enemy. Just because they are not forgiven does not mean we do not do good to them. Forgiving is releasing the debt owed. In true repentance, they will want to repay the debt if at all possible, even if it is forgiven (this of course does not apply to our debt to God, which we could not repay at all). So if they repent, they will want to make it right. They might not be able to make it right, but if they are able to make it right, but choose not to, did they really repent?

Regardless, I would pray for them, do good to them, show them the love of Christ. That is required of us by God. But to forgive them they need to repent, even as we need to repent if we are to be forgiven. And while repentance unto life is a grace which we cannot earn or "do" as a work before God, it is possible for the reprobate to repent in a temporal sense and want to make whole those whom he has harmed, even if they deny Christ.

Originally Posted by Archlute

They had a Roman Catholic judge who thankfully, although he ended up having to rule in their favor, rebuked them in the courtroom for shaming Christ and the Church by bringing another professing Christian before the civil courts. His head was clear on the matter, whereas the protestant party was attempting to find justification for their actions by way of a rationalizing sophistry.

Ouch! Rebuked by a papist!

Matthew 18

5Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

.

Matthew 6

2And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

II Corinthians 2


5But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.

6Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.

7So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

8Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

9For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.

10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Nikki;

I've been pondering your question the past couple days..I think it is equally difficult to love someone who has wronged us be they a brother in Christ or not..but it also depends on how they have wronged you..

I believe forgiveness is a necessity for a Christian whether the other person seeks our forgiveness or not..many times they may not even realize they have hurt us, by word or action..

But Scripture is clear how WE as Christian are to respond when someone does wrong us..

Matthew 6:14-15

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If your brother doesn't know they have offended you, how can they follow the Lords command?

Mat 5:23-24

So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Mat 18:15

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

2Cr 2:5-11

Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure--not to put it too severely--to all of you. For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

Eph 4:31-32

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

If we harbor un-forgiveness in our hearts we are the ones who suffer, as we end up dwelling on that wrong done against us and it becomes a root of bitterness in our hearts..that when we see them or think of them we are reminded of how they wronged us, and not on how God has forgiven us, our own sins against Him.

Scripture tells us, If we are wronged WE go to them and let them know..that is one of the only way's they will know they have done something against us, unless we are ignoring them and are acting un-Christ-like towards them..but even in those cases should we 'wait' for them to be obedient to God's commands and leave their gift at the alter or are we to be obedient first??

If our relationship to Christ is to be healthy then WE are to be obedient to Christ, whether the other person is or not..we should not wait on someone else to be obedient before we are..

Originally Posted by Simply_Nikki

The main thing I'm hung up on is the passage in Luke 17 that some have already mentioned in this thread.

3Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."

To me it seems like rebuke is what is first required in a situation between fellow believers. You confront the person of his sin against you letting him or her know of the violation. It then says "if" he repents forgive him. And that no matter how many times he commits an offense against you you are obligated to forgive him "if" he repents. It doesn't say anything about if he doesn't.

And if it is the case, taking into account the whole counsel of scripture, that one must forgive no matter what regardless of whether they repent or not, then why does this passage even mention repentance in the process of forgiveness?

Why wouldn't it just say.. if your brother commits a sin against you forgive him? Its kind of confusing.

You're right, it is confusing. But I think we cannot go wrong by forgiving in our hearts even if they refuse to repent. If I do not forgive, then have I not hardened my heart towards my brother, and toward God? I agree with an earlier post that to forgive him and treat him with love is "heaping coals upon his head." But how can I love my neighbor/ brother/ enemy if I have a grudge against him. I think that by NOT forgiving, even if they have not repented, means that I am violating the command to love?

-----Added 12/2/2009 at 11:56:13 EST-----

Originally Posted by BJClark

If we harbor un-forgiveness in our hearts we are the ones who suffer, as we end up dwelling on that wrong done against us and it becomes a root of bitterness in our hearts..that when we see them or think of them we are reminded of how they wronged us, and not on how God has forgiven us, our own sins against Him.

Scripture tells us, If we are wronged WE go to them and let them know..that is one of the only way's they will know they have done something against us, unless we are ignoring them and are acting un-Christ-like towards them..but even in those cases should we 'wait' for them to be obedient to God's commands and leave their gift at the alter or are we to be obedient first??

If our relationship to Christ is to be healthy then WE are to be obedient to Christ, whether the other person is or not..we should not wait on someone else to be obedient before we are..

Beautifully and Biblically stated. Thank you.