I was just curious what you folks thought about gambling. Is it a sin, or like other things, its a sin when done in excess. Is gambling one of those things you think its ok to do in moderation? Do you gamble from time-to-time, whether that be scratch tickets or the casino or the stock market? I'd imagine that a good number would say, like other things, its ok when done in moderation.

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Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Your on! 20 bucks says it is a sin!


Dobson and Mohler say it's a sin because it is bad stewardship and lowers the quality of life (sixth commandment). There is a reformed view that would say it puts God to a foolish test and demonstrates our putting our well being into the realm of chance.


The Bible does not come right out and say that gambling is wrong. In fact it gives examples of God's people gambling.

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Bob Vigneault (Bawb Vēēn-yo)
I just know there's got to be a pony in here somewhere!

The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog) MySpace (Music), MySpace (Personal)
Member of Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Gambling
Is Gambling unbiblical?
Is Gambling Ethical?
Gambling
Powerball = $340 Million - Play or Not Play?
Texas Hold em!

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

I've never gambled. I don't have the money to. But I think that if people can keep from becoming addicted/spending more than they should, then it's not a sin.

Appropriate: Instead of spending $30 bucks to go out to eat, I could spend $10 buying food to cook at home and spend $20 gambling.

Sinful: Instead of spending $500 on my apartment rent, I could spend $500 on gambling.

Just my

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Kim G
Non-denom church (holds to the WCF)
Zion Community Church, Greenville, SC

Teach me Your way, O LORD;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psalm 86:11

Well, the Bible gives lots of historical narrative examples of people committing sins without the writer actually passing a judgment upon the perpetrators.

But of gambling, I like the analogy that J.G. Vos gave many decades ago. He said that gambling is to theft as dueling is to murder. Even though there is "mutual consent" to an act does not mean that the act now becomes moral. Obviously sexual sin would be an example here.

In other words, if I agreed to duel with someone, I would agree to accept the risk of the negative outcome of the event - in this case, the loss of my life. However, this still does not excuse the other party from having killed me for no justifiable reason from God's perspective.

In gambling, I am agreeing to accept the risk of the negative outcome - the loss of my money to another party. Since I did not freely want the other party to have my money in a classic market win-win transaction, I instead appealed to my greed to risk the money God has given to me in a complete "chance" outcome in which its disposition is not known. Again, as with dueling, this does not excuse the other party from taking my money. In God's eyes, this is still considered theft.

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Randy Harris
Heritage Church (Independent)
Oklahoma City, OK

Sorry I won't be able to take you up on this bet.

Did I say "...bet that a good number would say..."? I'll have to change my original post. What I meant to say was "...imagine that a good number would say...". (and it has nothing to do with me looking at the links Andrew provided )

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Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

So as long as you keep winning it is not a sin! Winning is good stewardship, so, "Just win, Baby!"

I will point out that the Bible never says that gambling for money is something you should be doing either.

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I don't think this is entirely true. Am I causing the Chinese buffet down the road to sin when I can't eat my full $10 worth of food? I mean, they really should give me that extra money back since they didn't earn it. What about that great deal I found at Goodwill that cost me only $5. Was I stealing an invisible $25 because it was worth more?

Gambling is not always about the money. I would consider any money I put down to play (i.e. poker) as money donated to have fun, just like spending $75 to get into a Disney theme park. Whether I recoup any of my money is not the issue at that point.

I personally would not put money on the lottery because of the "chance" outcome, but would not have a problem putting a small bit of money on a game that is not completely chance. I'm playing, I'm having fun, I don't care about the recoup of money.

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Kim G
Non-denom church (holds to the WCF)
Zion Community Church, Greenville, SC

Teach me Your way, O LORD;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psalm 86:11

I would say that it relies upon luck, and also is hard to seek the best for one's neighbor and yet try to win his pot. Cards with family seems different. It seems it might not be per se evil but the events that normal surround it taint it.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

As a teen I made it one of my unchangeable life principles that I would not gamble and I haven't. I saw too many dumb bets result in heartbreak. I've never bought a lottery ticket or played a game for money. In spite of my choice I can't find an explicit command it scripture against gambling.

If God controls the dice then God controls the cr@p game, right?

Isn't the lottery the poor man's stock market?

Isn't the stock market sophisticated gambling?

I gave 400 dollars to a local farmer for a share of his crop this summer. Isn't that gambling?

I'm not advocating gambling, I'm just playing Benny Hinn's advocate.

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Bob Vigneault (Bawb Vēēn-yo)
I just know there's got to be a pony in here somewhere!

The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog) MySpace (Music), MySpace (Personal)
Member of Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

[quote=Kim G;432176]You agreed to pay $10 for the food you purchased, and the merchant agreed to give you their food portion for $10. What you did with it at that point is your problem, not the merchant's.

Obviously you could repeat such examples endlessly. I pay $50 for a football game and decide to leave at halftime. Should the ticket office give me back $25? Nonsense. I made the choice not to hold out my part of the agreement - to see the entire game. That is not the problem of the ticket office, who in good faith sold me the ticket, at a price I agreed to, to watch the game.

I'm sure we all know of people who bought expensive exercise equipment or some other recreational item and only used it once or twice. Should the merchant give back the money because we did not use the equipment? Of course not.

Goodwill or the Salvation Army sell items like any other merchant. They set the value, you determine whether it is appropriate or not. Again, a free-market transaction here. There is no ill will (no pun intended) happening here; there is no "chance" outcome. You get what you pay for.

Regarding your "fun" comment - well, getting drunk, having illicit sex, and a myriad of other things are considered "fun" by people where the Bible clearly condemns the acts. Scripture determines what is right and wrong, not the fun or pleasure we may get out of an activity.

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Randy Harris
Heritage Church (Independent)
Oklahoma City, OK

The confusion here is with the definition of risk. A farmer plants his crops; is he guaranteed a bountiful harvest? No. Weather and other factors, which cannot be predicted, have a role. Other legitimate investments would apply, where you are attempting to exercise your role as a faithful steward of God's resources to take dominion over the earth and engage in win-win transactions where others are also helped and served.

In gambling, no honest, productive effort has occurred; there is no win-win
transaction. The money or other service has was not used properly.

Let's think about what theft is. It is someone taking your property or using your service without your consent.

This is the problem with gambling. If you lose to the other party, it is not really with your honest consent, even though you outwardly agreed to it.

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Randy Harris
Heritage Church (Independent)
Oklahoma City, OK

[quote=R Harris;432189]And so does the gambler. Nobody's forcing anybody to go into the casino. Everyone comes to the table knowing what's at stake, so I think your statements here are irrelevant at worst, and actually support what she said at best. You're acting as though the "chance" outcome (which is really not "chance") changes the situation entirely, but the fact of the matter is that all parties involved, in all of these cases (including gambling), are "setting a value" and "determining what is appropriate" for themselves. The transaction at the poker table is just as much a "free-market" transaction as the one at Goodwill.

Another great point. Scripture does condemn those acts cleary, unlike gambling.

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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Currently in the process of transferring membership to an as-yet-undecided church in Chapel Hill
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

Thanks for saying it better than I could.

What's so ironic about this is that I don't gamble. I don't prefer gambling (except for texas hold'em with my family). I think lottery is stupid. But I don't believe in calling something unequivably "sinful" that the Lord doesn't call sin.

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Kim G
Non-denom church (holds to the WCF)
Zion Community Church, Greenville, SC

Teach me Your way, O LORD;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psalm 86:11

I agree Kim. Gambling, cigarette smoking and body piercing and tats are all actions I do not like at all. I really do wish there was a clear verse against these things. I would jump at the irrefutable argument against these things but I can't see them in Scripture. I am left to concede that there are very good implicit arguments against these things but that's it. For me, the implicit arguments are good enough.

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Bob Vigneault (Bawb Vēēn-yo)
I just know there's got to be a pony in here somewhere!

The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog) MySpace (Music), MySpace (Personal)
Member of Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

That's it! That's who you remind me of (other than the hair).

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

[quote=Davidius;432199][quote=R Harris;432189]We are obviously getting nowhere here. Back to my original point and using your logic, dueling is an acceptable practice. The two parties agree to the act, they understand what is at stake, and no one is forcing them to engage in the duel. Therefore, one of the two parties ends up dead.

So God has no problem with dueling, right? Can you give me a specific example in Scripture of a voluntary, agreeable duel - a fight to the death? (No, this is not the same as combat, such as David and Goliath.)

Dueling is murder; gambling is theft.

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Randy Harris
Heritage Church (Independent)
Oklahoma City, OK

I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree that these statements are the same.

I don't believe that "just because you have consenting adults, you can do whatever you want." Dueling to the death is wrong. HOWEVER, practicing sword-fighting and fencing is not wrong. Your goal is not death, but talent and training. So DUELING is not wrong. Rather, dueling to the death or for vengeance is wrong.

In the same way, gambling can be an enjoying pasttime like any other money-waster--like paying for cable 24/7 when you only watch a few shows a week. Eh, maybe not the most useful means of your time and money, but not sinful if in moderation. So the act of gambling isn't wrong. But gambling with a heart of greed or cheating to obtain money outside the bounds of the game is wrong.

__________________
Kim G
Non-denom church (holds to the WCF)
Zion Community Church, Greenville, SC

Teach me Your way, O LORD;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psalm 86:11

Dang it Dennis, I knew I should have said 'Robert Tilton'. When I think of the devil, t