Faith Abuse

Richard King · #1 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 10:50 AM

how would you advise a young man who thinks it shows a lack of faith to lock his home. He has computers, musical equipment, a motorcycle, a welder, expensive wood tools etc. yet he does not lock his house when he is gone or home because God watches over it. He isn't in some gated community. He is in an area with lots of break ins. How do you teach someone that thinking and common sense isn't showing a lack of faith in God's sovereinty. He thinks he is demonstrating his faith.

BobVigneault · #2 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 10:52 AM

Please tell me where he lives Richard, God will forgive me later. :bigsmile:

BobVigneault · #3 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 10:56 AM

Seriously, Jesus establishes that there are thieves and he tells us what they do in John 10:10 -

10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy.

Not locking is bad stewardship. Shall we not weed our garden because God is sovereign over the weeds.

py3ak · #4 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 10:56 AM

In order to advise him we must have his home address and his itinerary.

BobVigneault · #5 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 10:59 AM

Hey Ruben, it won't be stealing if we take all his stuff and then wait for him to die and write him a check for the whole thing and put it in his coffin. Are you with me?

VirginiaHuguenot · #6 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 11:00 AM

I think both the Sixth and Eighth Commandments are relevant. We are commanded to be prudent in the use of means to protect ourselves, our loved ones and our estate.

A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished. Prov. 27.12

Quote:

Q135: What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?
A135: The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves [1] and others [2] by resisting all thoughts and purposes,[3] subduing all passions,[4] and avoiding all occasions,[5] temptations,[6] and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any;[7] by just defense thereof against violence,[8] patient bearing of the hand of God,[9] quietness of mind,[10] cheerfulness of spirit;[11] a sober use of meat,[12] drink,[13] physic,[14] sleep,[15] labor,[16] and recreations;[17] by charitable thoughts,[18] love,[19] compassion,[20] meekness, gentleness, kindness;[21] peaceable,[22] mild and courteous speeches and behavior;[23] forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil;[24] comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.[25]

1. Eph. 5:28-29
2. I Kings 18:4
3. Jer. 26:15-16; Acts 23:12, 16-17, 21, 27
4. Eph. 4:26-27
5. II Sam. 2:22; Deut. 22:8
6. Matt. 4:6-7; Prov. 1:10-11, 15-16
7. I Sam. 24:2; 26:9-11; Gen. 37:21-22
8. Psa. 82:4; Prov. 24:11-12; I Sam. 14:45
9. James 5:7-11; Heb. 12:9
10. I Thess. 4:11; I Peter 3:3-4; Psa. 37:8-11
11. Prov. 17:22
12. Prov. 25:16, 27
13. I Tim. 5:23
14. Isa. 38:21
15. Psa. 127:2
16. Eccl. 5:12; II Thess. 3:10, 12; Prov. 16:26
17. Eccl. 3:4, 11
18. I Sam. 19:4-5; 22:13-14
19. Rom. 13:10
20. Luke 10:33-34
21. Col. 3:12-13
22. James 3:17
23. I Peter 3:8-11; Prov. 15:1; Judg. 8:1-3
24. Matt. 5:24; Eph. 4:2, 32; Rom. 12:17, 20-21
25. I Thess. 5:14; Job 31:19-20; Matt. 25:35-36; Prov. 31:8-9

Q136: What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
A136: The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves,[1] or of others,[2] except in case of public justice,[3] lawful war,[4] or necessary defense;[5] the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life;[6] sinful anger,[7] hatred,[8] envy,[9] desire of revenge;[10] all excessive passions,[11] distracting cares;[12] immoderate use of meat, drink,[13] labor,[14] and recreations;[15] provoking words,[16] oppression,[17] quarreling,[18] striking, wounding,[19] and: Whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.[20]

1. Acts 16:28
2. Gen. 9:6
3. Num. 35:31, 33
4. Jer. 48:10; Deut. ch. 20
5. Exod. 22:2-3
6. Matt. 25:42-43; James 2:15-16; Eccl. 6:1-2
7. Matt. 5:22
8. I John 3:15; Lev. 19:17
9. Prov. 14:30
10. Rom. 12:19
11. Eph. 4:31
12. Matt. 6:31, 34
13. Luke 21:34; Rom. 13:13
14. Eccl. 2:22-23; 12:12
15. Isa. 5:12
16. Prov. 12:18; 15:1
17. Ezek. 18:18; Exod. 1:14
18. Gal. 5:15; Prov. 23:29
19. Num. 35:16-18, 21
20. Exod. 21:18-36

Q141: What are the duties required in the eighth commandment?
A141: The duties required in the eighth commandment are, truth, faithfulness, and justice in contracts and commerce between man and man;[1] rendering to everyone his due;[2] restitution of goods unlawfully detained from the right owners thereof;[3] giving and lending freely, according to our abilities, and the necessities of others;[4] moderation of our judgments, wills, and affections concerning worldly goods;[5] a provident care and study to get,[6] keep, use, and dispose these things which are necessary and convenient for the sustentation of our nature, and suitable to our condition;[7] a lawful calling,[8] and diligence in it;[9] frugality;[10] avoiding unnecessary lawsuits [11] and suretyship, or other like engagements;[12] and an endeavor, by all just and lawful means, to procure, preserve, and further the wealth and outward estate of others, as well as our own.[13]

1. Psa. 15:2, 4; Zech. 7:4, 10; 8:16-17
2. Rom. 13:7
3. Lev. 6:2-5; Luke 19:8
4. Luke 6:30, 38; I John 3:17; Eph. 4:28; Gal. 6:10
5. I Tim. 6:6-9; Gal. 6:14
6. I Tim. 5:8
7. Prov. 27:23-27; Eccl. 2:24; 3:12-13; I Tim. 6:17-18; Isa. 38:1; Matt. 11:8
8. I Cor. 7:20; Gen. 2:15, 3:19
9. Eph. 4:28; Prov. 10:4
10. John 6:12; Prov. 21:20
11. I Cor. 6:1-9
12. Prov. 6:1-6; 11:15
13. Lev. 25:35; Deut. 22:1-4; Exod. 23:4-5; Gen. 47:14, 20; Phil. 2:4, Matt. 22:39

Q142: What are the sins forbidden in the eighth commandment?
A142: The sins forbidden in the eighth commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required,[1] are, theft,[2] robbery,[3] man-stealing,[4] and receiving anything that is stolen;[5] fraudulent dealing,[6] false weights and measures,[7] removing land marks,[8] injustice and unfaithfulness in contracts between man and man,[9] or in matters of trust;[10] oppression,[11] extortion,[12] usury,[13] bribery,[14] vexatious lawsuits,[15] unjust enclosures and depopulations;[16] engrossing commodities to enhance the price;[17] unlawful callings,[18] and all other unjust or sinful ways of taking or withholding from our neighbor what belongs to him, or of enriching ourselves;[19] covetousness;[20] inordinate prizing and affecting worldly goods;[21] distrustful and distracting cares and studies in getting, keeping, and using them;[22] envying at the prosperity of others;[23] as likewise idleness,[24] prodigality, wasteful gaming; and all other ways whereby we do unduly prejudice our own outward estate,[25] and defrauding ourselves of the due use and comfort of that estate which God hath given us.[26]

1. James 2:15-16; I John 3:17
2. Eph. 4:28; Psa. 42:10
3. Psa. 62:10
4. I Tim. 1:10
5. Prov. 29:24; Psa. 1:18
6. I Thess. 4:6
7. Prov. 11:1; 20:10
8. Deut. 19:14; Prov. 23:10
9. Amos 8:5; Psa. 37:21
10. Luke 16:10-12
11. Ezek. 22:29; Lev. 25:17
12. Matt. 23:25; Ezek. 22:12
13. Psa. 15:5
14. Job 15:34
15. I Cor. 6:6-8; Prov. 3:29-30
16. Isa. 5:8; Micah 2:2
17. Prov. 11:26
18. Acts 19:19, 24-25
19. Job. 20:19; James 5:4; Prov. 21:6
20. Luke 12:15
21. I Tim. 6:5; Col. 3:2; Prov. 23:5; Psa. 42:10
22. Matt. 6:25, 31, 34, Eccl. 5:12
23. Psa. 37:1, 7; 73:3
24. II Thess. 3:11; Prov. 18:9
25. Prov. 21:17; 23:20-21; 28:19
26. Eccl. 4:8; 6:2; I Tim. 5:8

CalsFarmer · #7 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 11:06 AM

I wonder if your friend would think it was a lack of faith to eat since God is the sustainer of all things?

Your friend does not have any common sense.

crhoades · #8 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 11:10 AM

Shall we not pray or evangelize because God sovereignly chooses?

God is sovereign. Man is responsible. He is neglecting the latter because a lack of understanding of the former.

It would be interesting to discuss issues that would link to hyper-calvinism with him. Don't even bring up his locking the doors. You could lead into that but I wouldn't start with it.

You could also ask him what would happen to his faith if he walked in and things were stolen. Let's say that one of the posters on this thread did come by and take something. (Bob!) Would that mess up his "faith"?

Scott Bushey · #9 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 11:21 AM

Cromwell said it best:

"Put your faith in God and keep your gunpowder dry".

Mike · #10 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 11:28 AM

True faith in God is accompanied by activity on our part. Shall we stop eating, because we have faith in God to sustain us, as He watches over us? No, He does that through food that He gives us, most of the time. Neither shall we not lock our doors because we have faith in God to protect us; He does this in part by providing locks.

Richard King · #11 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 11:57 AM

Funny...my first thought was to rob him too! I thought this will be an easy lesson to teach but then once I told him it was only me...he would think he ended up being right. Maybe I will go with the check in the coffin idea.
Seriously, I think there is some good counsel here and some excellent bible references. Thanks.
The folly of the youth I know is sure making me feel old.

py3ak · #12 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 12:08 PM

Bob,

I think that is an excellent idea. In addition, we could simply leave that part of his possessions that we think is good enough to bother taking to him in our wills --that way we have done nothing but borrow --and there is no law against that.

Richard,

Maybe some Puritanboard member in Texas would be willing to tackle this project for you.... You provide the ski mask and the gloves!

Seriously, God ordinarily uses means. Not understanding that we use means in dependence on God is a very fruitful error for the Christian life. If we see that means ordinarily work, we can put our faith in them and believe in the uniformity of natural causes in a closed system --basically become mechanistic and ultimately pragmatistic. On the other hand, we can despise means thinking that God will take care of it. The true Biblical balance, illustrated time and again in Scripture (think for instance of Hezekiah, who had promises of recovery from his illness and deliverance from the Assyrians, yet still he used a plaster of figs and prayed) is of use of the means God has appointed in humble dependence on Him --knowing that if it is His will He can work without or contrary to means, but that ordinarily He uses these means for the establishment of His purposes.

alwaysreforming · #13 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 12:20 PM

This man sounds like he's "too spiritual for his own good."

Some people I think lack common sense and therefore lack true spiritual sense.

(As I write that I think how often that probably has applied to me.)

Its the same as a girl I was dating having no fear of jogging in a dangerous neighborhood at night because "God was in control."

As long as we're "presuming" upon God for the future, we might as well make our presumption based off of our current actions. If I'm too lazy to work, I should presume that God has poverty in mind for me. If I lock my doors at night, I could presume that God has safety in mind for me. If I eat, I should presume that I shall live.
This strategy should work 99% of the time!

Contra_Mundum · #14 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 02:29 PM

Here's what I'd say.
1) I'd ask him how much he is attached to anything he's got in there. If he lost one thing in particular, would that grieve him? Would it cause him to have less faith in God? If losing anything would not cause him to blame God, then I say let him exercise his faith. If he says that God must not have wanted him to have that (whatever) then I guess he feels pretty secure, no matter what the neighborhood is like. At this point I would just offer to counsel him if his attitude ever changed...

2) Of course that could all change if he passed from the hypothetical to the actual. He might feel anger, fear, resentment, violated. If you could persuade him ahead of time that he might feel these things toward someone, or worse: toward God, then you may have some place to begin speaking with him about prudence and the "ordinary use of means."

3) God does not typically call men to this "life of faith" as claimed by some, but which is actually a "life of presumption." Some good examples of ordinary means have already been given in this thread, means he probably uses on a daily basis. Why is he making an exception in this case?

4) If he said that he would have less faith in God if he didn't protect him, then he ought to be shown that he is trying to make God conform to his preconceived notions, and those are almost certain to be overturned by God himself.

pastorway · #15 (**permalink**) 12-09-2005, 02:59 PM

Random thoughts:

True faith is neither blind nor naive.

It is informed from the Word, where even Jesus instructed the disciples to buy swords!

Ask you friend if he carries his money in his wallet tucked safely in his pocket. Why? Why not trust God and leave all your cash out in the open?

And by his hermenuetic he should have nothing worth protecting because Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all he had and give the money to the poor. Has he done this? If so, he has no need to lock his door.

Phillip