Hello People,
One question that continually bugs me is this, is downloading or watching movies online and say downloading ebooks of books that are commercially being sold, is it sin?
Please state your arguments.
Hello People,
One question that continually bugs me is this, is downloading or watching movies online and say downloading ebooks of books that are commercially being sold, is it sin?
Please state your arguments.
Lee Johnston
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Paisley, Scotland
Ephesians 1:4-5
"In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."
I would say yes, and I have stressed this to other Christian friends. I'm typing on my mobile, so I'll keep this short.
Piracy is considered theft almost everywhere in the West. Theft is a sin. If you don't agree that piracy is theft, the Bible tells us to obey the laws placed on us by our governments. Piracy is against the law.
I don't know the Bible verses off-hand that I loosely referenced, but I'm sure another brother or sister does. If not, I'll find them tomorrow.
David
Assemblies of God
Mackay, Queensland, Australia
Andres (12-05-2009)
If it is illegal to do so, then you are bound by Romans 13 to obey the government and not do it. Obviously if you are downloading things you've paid for, then that's no problem - and/or if they are offered for free by the publishing house or artist (as in self-produced things) then that too is fine. But if you're talking about downloading mp3's from file sharing sites, that is theft, which is a direct violation of the 8th commandment.
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
My Blog: In Principio Deus
Podcast I co-host: Covenant Radio
"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart
Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum
he beholds (12-05-2009), Montanablue (12-05-2009)
I would agree. In some cases, it is legal to download information for personal use, but not for commercial use. In others you may not make copies for any reason without paying. You should check the details before downloading.
J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27
Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/
If the movie or mp3s are downloaded legally--like from iTunes, Amazon, etc., then of course it is okay. But if you are not paying for them (and they are not actually a free download) then it is stealing plain and simple, which is obviously a sin.
I struggled with this when I first got to college because everyone else did it and it was so easy to do. At first I didn't realize I was doing anything wrong, but even once I did, I still didn't want to stop doing it. I used the usual excuses of, "They charge too much", "Its not that good", "I'm only watching it once", "Its like borrowing from a friend", etc. However, the Lord eventually convicted me that I was just using these excuses to steal. Once I came under that conviction, the mp3s, movies, software, etc. was removed from my computer and I finally had a clear conscience. And in the end, I didn't miss it anyway!
Joshua F
Mountain View Community Church
Fort Collins, CO
The question didn't say "illegally downloading," but I'll assume that's what you meant. I believe it is wrong, but the majority of people disagree with me - although maybe not on the PB, who knows.
That said, I'll add that it's kind of a silly law. The record companies profit more from the increased music attention, which results in bigger concert sales - their primary source of income. But silly or not, it's still illegal. They have the right to sell their recordings and not have them copied and distributed free, if that's what they want to do. They went to the trouble and paid the money to produce the recording.
Edit: I misspoke. I should have said it's a silly policy, not law. The law should stay the same and businesses might do well to change their policies.
Last edited by austinww; 12-14-2009 at 12:02 PM.
Austin Williamson
Electrical engineering student at Texas State University
Member of Church of the Cross (PCA)
San Marcos, TX
"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. "
Jas. 5:13
That's interesting. I was just thinking about making a post on illegally copying mp3s/videos, and then I log into the PB and it's the top thread.
Legally? Yes, downloading videos/mp3s (without paying for them) is technically illegal. I would argue that watching streaming videos is no different in the end than borrowing them from a public library, but the law is still the law, and we are exhorted to obey especially the unjust laws.![]()
Jonathan, A.A.S.
Audio Engineer
Otherwise Reformed Baptist
Ohio
Stealing is a sin. iTunes isn't terribly expensive. Musicians have to eat, too!
austinww (12-05-2009), Richard Tallach (12-05-2009)
Downloading pirated videos is NOT anything close to the same thing as borrowing them from the public library. The public library has specific authorization to share what they purchase. Pirates do not. I would hope we recognize the difference, because it's an important one.
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
My Blog: In Principio Deus
Podcast I co-host: Covenant Radio
"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart
Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum
Would you walk into an entertainment store, take a physical DVD or CD from the shelves, and walk out without paying? Even if the store manager said, "You can take it without paying," it still wouldn't make it right because you would be defrauding the company and artist who produced the DVD or CD.
Just because stealing electronically is easier to do and harder to get caught doesn't make it okay. Remember the eighth commandment!
When I went to college (Christian college, no less), everyone was doing it. I was sent many mp3 files that I didn't know were illegal downloads. When I found out, I deleted them all. It wasn't easy because I liked many of them, but I didn't obtain them legally.
Kim G
Non-denom church (holds to the WCF)
Zion Community Church, Greenville, SC
Teach me Your way, O LORD;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psalm 86:11
We'll download television shows that we missed via bit torrent. If we had a Tivo / PVR we'd do the same thing and similarly skip the commercials. I can justify this, but we don't download movies or music that we'd otherwise rent from the video store or purchase online. I had a ton of pirated .mp3 at one time that I deleted when I came to the place where I recognized this as theft.
Eric
Woodgreen Presbyterian (PCA)
Calgary, Alberta CANADA
What happens if you rewarded the artist(s) years ago and purchased the music on an older media type, say record or tape. Let's assume the media is very worn and so transferring to the PC yields a crappy product. Does that make it any more or less acceptable to download without paying (again)?
Joseph
Independent Bible Church
Muskego, Wisconsin
Yes it is sin if you do not pay for them, it is the same as stealing.
Martin - Reformed
Husband to the most godly, honorable and loyal wife Line
Searching for a Church
Webpage www.5solas.dk
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
Soli Deo Gloria
I used to do this way back when.
My theory was that i was borrowing music that i normally would borrow from a friend. I tend to forget i have people's CD's so this was a great way. I wouldnt have to worry about returning it to someone and could just delete it from the HD when done.
What if i tape it off the radio? Does that fall under the same category? Or VHS recording a movie off of TV? The format has changed. Not that i do anymore but i see no difference between the two.
With the advent of DVR the line is obscured. Do i buy an overpriced set of a TV show that will end up collecting dust after 1 or 2 viewings? Do i wait for each episode and DVR those or Do i download them directly from a bit torrent site? I already pay for cable so i would most likely just DVR them. But what difference is there if i already have the cable (and station it is on) + DVR box over using a torrent site? To me it just seems that one method is more convenient then the other.
I would never buy something blind. I would always view or listen to it first otherwise i could possibly buy something thats not worth it. So i may wait for radio play or borrow it from a friend.
If i am borrowing it for a time physically what is the difference If i am borrowing it from that same friend digitally? That way he doesnt lose his copy, I dont lose it or damage it accidently.
Not that i really do anymore. I found many years ago that i would listen to something once and that was it. I find the radio to be more convenient as i dont have to queue anything up and they can worry about variety instead of me making a playlist.
Brian E
Attending Falls OPC
Menomonee Falls, WI
Originally Posted by Psalm 28:7
If you walk into a bookstore and take a book from the shelf that costs $13.99 and walk out without paying it, it's theft.
If you buy a book from a man who says that he stole the book, it's theft.
If you take the book from a man who says he stole the book, it's theft.
If you download the book without paying for it, to the person who rightfully has the rights to distribute it, it's theft.
Andrew
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
and to listen than the fat of rams.
For rebellion is as the sin of divination,
and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry."
David (12-05-2009)
I have to say yes BUT I do go through loopholes sometimes. For example its not illegal to WATCH an uploaded illegally movie online but its illegal to opload or download it in Canada. So thats what I do. Its probably a bit questionable but I break no laws. I have only downloaded a a couple of songs illegally but only songs that I have already bought but lost via harddrive crash, etc... I do think its time the laws get updated for the 21st century when it comes to copyright and its time that corporations start putting all their stuff online for free access to watch (they can still add even more ad space... think comedy central). The longer things stay the same the more money they loose.
J. P. Grigoletti II * Lay-man * Église Réformée du Québec
Québec, Québec Canada * Member: Église Reformée St. Marc
http://Grigoletti.blogspot.com - blog
<<There are three things necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily: the first, how great your sins and miseries are; the second, how thou may be delivered from all thy sins and miseries; the third, how thou shall express thy gratitude to God for such deliverance.>>
Regardless of what's more profitable for them in the long run, if you invest capital and labor into producing a product that there's a demand for, then you have a right to charge for your product if you desire. It isn't the copyright laws that need changing, it's the businesses' policies. Their rights should stay the same, but they should update their policies if you are indeed correct about profitability.
Austin Williamson
Electrical engineering student at Texas State University
Member of Church of the Cross (PCA)
San Marcos, TX
"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. "
Jas. 5:13
Hamalas (12-05-2009)
J. P. Grigoletti II * Lay-man * Église Réformée du Québec
Québec, Québec Canada * Member: Église Reformée St. Marc
http://Grigoletti.blogspot.com - blog
<<There are three things necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily: the first, how great your sins and miseries are; the second, how thou may be delivered from all thy sins and miseries; the third, how thou shall express thy gratitude to God for such deliverance.>>
But that's stealing. They invested their own property (capital and the cost of labor) into making it, and they own it. They don't have to sell it at all if they don't want to. But if they do sell it, they may charge what they see fit - whether it be medicine or origami giraffes.
Austin Williamson
Electrical engineering student at Texas State University
Member of Church of the Cross (PCA)
San Marcos, TX
"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. "
Jas. 5:13
You might find this interestng. I stopped after reading this thread.
Software Piracy
Norm
IA PCA
"What fools are they who, for a drop of pleasure, drink a sea of wrath." -Thomas Watson
That a political debate. I would say that apart of living in a society and under a government means that there is an moral obligation to sell things as cheap as possible and no profit when lives are at risk. A policeman off the clock is still required to act in a certain manner all the time even if he is not paid. And I would make the point that those who work in the healthcare industry have the same obligation to work for the motive of saving lives above all. Yes there may be profit but when profit becomes the sole factor and you become all Ann raynd you will cut corners all the time in order to get more money even if lives are cost needessly (i.e. Vioox- many lives were saved because of it except that those who had heart conditions died while taking it. the corporation did a mental cost benefit analysis and took the risk about lying about all the side effects in order to sell more of a decent drug... this is why)
But you cannot compare tv shows with medicine ethically. That is just ethically irresponsible in my judgment. Also not all countries have the same laws when it comes to these things so that is another consideration...
J. P. Grigoletti II * Lay-man * Église Réformée du Québec
Québec, Québec Canada * Member: Église Reformée St. Marc
http://Grigoletti.blogspot.com - blog
<<There are three things necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily: the first, how great your sins and miseries are; the second, how thou may be delivered from all thy sins and miseries; the third, how thou shall express thy gratitude to God for such deliverance.>>
Yes, unless it is public domain then you're okay. Which is great for you in the UK since the laws determining what and when it goes into PD are less strict.
Some items in the public domain are still sold commercially as well. These are usually your bargain books or $1 dollar DVDs. Not sure what your cheap DVDs sell for in Scotland.
I can elaborate more if necessary.
Willie Grills
Trinity Presbyterian Church
OPC
Huntington, WV
J. P. Grigoletti II * Lay-man * Église Réformée du Québec
Québec, Québec Canada * Member: Église Reformée St. Marc
http://Grigoletti.blogspot.com - blog
<<There are three things necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily: the first, how great your sins and miseries are; the second, how thou may be delivered from all thy sins and miseries; the third, how thou shall express thy gratitude to God for such deliverance.>>
If it is an MP3 you have legally downloaded then most likely it is not illegal just to make the one copy and give away. So long as you are not selling them.
If you are ripping them from a CD and them making copies then there are some issues. But the one copy mixed CD should be fine.
Willie Grills
Trinity Presbyterian Church
OPC
Huntington, WV
I think that generally, stealing (which is what a lot of the downloading is online) is illegal, of course. However, I think this is a bit of a gray area... to some degree. I guess I can't really come up with an example but just see a lot of abuse of the law by the people in power and don't like it- so forget what I said! It's wrong!
J. P. Grigoletti II * Lay-man * Église Réformée du Québec
Québec, Québec Canada * Member: Église Reformée St. Marc
http://Grigoletti.blogspot.com - blog
<<There are three things necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily: the first, how great your sins and miseries are; the second, how thou may be delivered from all thy sins and miseries; the third, how thou shall express thy gratitude to God for such deliverance.>>
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
My Blog: In Principio Deus
Podcast I co-host: Covenant Radio
"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart
Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum
The Audio Home Recording Act allows you to legally make copies for yourself and the language also hints that giving a copy to a friend is fine. However that right does not extend to CD burners embedded in your pc. You can legally make on backup copy of a purchased audio cd using any technology.
You can however make a copy for yourself from mp3s, so long as they are legally downloaded. If you give away that one copy i'm not sure if it would be illegal or not. I'll check the rules at work and see just what they are.
-----Added 12/5/2009 at 03:14:22 EST-----
Because you can legally make one backup copy of the music you have purchased.
In any case the legal case in grey because recording and rights laws are far behind the technology used to record the media.
For individuals doing this it is increasingly difficult to follow all of the rules. I have it a little simpler in the radio business, we just pay for the rights.
Willie Grills
Trinity Presbyterian Church
OPC
Huntington, WV
Montanablue (12-05-2009)
While the actual laws concerning copyright are important in this discussion, shouldn't we also consider the artist who made the music in the first place? If he/she made the music/movie with the intent to sell it, then wouldn't it be considered stealing if they are not getting paid when you acquire their material?
I don't think that the law in any particular country can take away the moral obligation to follow a commandment.
Josh Taylor
Verde Valley Reformed Chapel, OPC
Cottonwood, AZ
the intention of the author while is nice to talk about really is not that important to the entire conversation. The writer or the band or the artist signs with a label and it is the corporation that releases it not the individual most of the time. The artist gets a piece of the profits of course but it is the company that makes most money off it. Once an artist signs a contract with X, they loose must of that right. Thats the reason why record companies exist. Artists give up X in order to get them to pay to produce a reccord, and do publicity, and get gigs and set up concerts.
J. P. Grigoletti II * Lay-man * Église Réformée du Québec
Québec, Québec Canada * Member: Église Reformée St. Marc
http://Grigoletti.blogspot.com - blog
<<There are three things necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily: the first, how great your sins and miseries are; the second, how thou may be delivered from all thy sins and miseries; the third, how thou shall express thy gratitude to God for such deliverance.>>
mininova shut down last week anyway.
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
My Blog: In Principio Deus
Podcast I co-host: Covenant Radio
"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart
Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum
austinww (12-07-2009), Grillsy (12-05-2009), Rich Koster (12-05-2009)
I used to download quite a bit of music for free (illegally). Two or three years ago I deleted the mp3's and threw out the CDs produced in this way.
I now only download legally. It's stealing from lots of different people along with the musicians.
I prayed that God would forgive me for this in Christ, and He has.
Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK
His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)
Grillsy (12-05-2009), Webservant (12-05-2009)
so what if you use an external dvd burner then is it legal?
J. P. Grigoletti II * Lay-man * Église Réformée du Québec
Québec, Québec Canada * Member: Église Reformée St. Marc
http://Grigoletti.blogspot.com - blog
<<There are three things necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily: the first, how great your sins and miseries are; the second, how thou may be delivered from all thy sins and miseries; the third, how thou shall express thy gratitude to God for such deliverance.>>
There's something called reasonable use in US law on making copies of copyright material you have paid for, which may be a sensible provision for "reasonable" limited copying.
I don't know if this is true of English, Scots or EU law.
This subject is technically for the "God's Law" section, by the way.
Here's John Frame's article on this. I don't remember the details of what he says, not having read it in a while:-
The Other Shoe: or, Copyright and the Reasonable Use of Technology
Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK
His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)
Grillsy (12-05-2009)
This is from the Terms of Use at Amazon for MP3:
2. Digital Content
2.1 Rights Granted. Upon your payment of our fees for Digital Content, we grant you a non-exclusive, non-transferable right to use the Digital Content for your personal, non-commercial, entertainment use, subject to and in accordance with the Terms of Use. You may copy, store, transfer and burn the Digital Content only for your personal, non-commercial, entertainment use, subject to and in accordance with the Terms of Use.
2.2 Restrictions. You represent, warrant and agree that you will use the Service only for your personal, non-commercial, entertainment use and not for any redistribution of the Digital Content or other use restricted in this Section 2.2. You agree not to infringe the rights of the Digital Content's copyright owners and to comply with all applicable laws in your use of the Digital Content. Except as set forth in Section 2.1 above, you agree that you will not redistribute, transmit, assign, sell, broadcast, rent, share, lend, modify, adapt, edit, license or otherwise transfer or use the Digital Content. You are not granted any synchronization, public performance, promotional use, commercial sale, resale, reproduction or distribution rights for the Digital Content. You acknowledge that the Digital Content embodies the intellectual property of a third party and is protected by law.
Josh Taylor
Verde Valley Reformed Chapel, OPC
Cottonwood, AZ
Grillsy (12-05-2009)
And Itunes:
Usage Rules
(i) Your use of the Products is conditioned upon your prior acceptance of the terms of this Agreement.
(ii) You shall be authorized to use the Products only for personal, noncommercial use.
(iii) You shall be authorized to use the Products on five Apple-authorized devices at any time, except in the case of Movie Rentals, as described below.
(iv) You shall be able to store Products from up to five different Accounts on certain devices, such as an iPod or iPhone, and Apple TV at a time; provided that each iPhone may sync ring tone Products with only a single Apple-authorized device at a time, and that syncing an iPhone with another Apple-authorized device will cause any ring tone Products stored on such iPhone to be erased and, if you so choose, to be replaced with any ring tone Products stored on such other Apple-authorized device. Additional restrictions apply to Movies Rentals, as described below.
(v) You shall be authorized to burn an audio playlist up to seven times.
(vi) You shall not be entitled to burn video Products or ring tone Products.
(vii) You shall be entitled to export, burn (if applicable) or copy (if applicable) Products solely for personal, noncommercial use.
Josh Taylor
Verde Valley Reformed Chapel, OPC
Cottonwood, AZ
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