Does God punish Christians?

ColdSilverMoon · #1 (**permalink**) 09-02-2009, 02:59 PM

In his sermon last Sunday, one of the assistant pastors made the comment that God never punishes the elect in a punitive sense because Christ paid the debt for their sins on the cross, and for God to punish Christians would mean He demands a double punishment for the same sin. The context of this remark was the aftermath of David's adultery with Bathsheba when his newborn son died and the trouble with Absalom was prophesied. This pastor considered those trials to be a way of jolting David out of his sin, but wasn't retribution for his sins of adultery and murder.

While this makes sense logically, I've never really considered it before. So, I wanted to get my fellow PBers' perspectives: does God punish Christians (punitively) for their sins?

Skyler · #2 (**permalink**) 09-02-2009, 03:02 PM

no

edit: No, God chastens Christians. He doesn't punish them.

JTB · #3 (**permalink**) 09-02-2009, 03:14 PM

No, it is called discipline when the elect face the natural (not legal) consequences of their sin.

Incidentally, we should also acknowledge that any good natural consequences that the reprobate experience is really punishment deferred--to experience good without true thankfulness to God is to store up His wrath.

dr_parsley · #4 (**permalink**) 09-02-2009, 03:16 PM

Everything works for our good. I try to do the same for my children and sometimes when I help them I call it "punishment". This is a language issue I think; there is good mileage in not calling God's refining of us "punishment" so that we do not confuse it with judgment.

Augusta · #5 (**permalink**) 09-02-2009, 03:30 PM

I read somewhere can't remember but it may have been Sibbes "Bruised Reed", that God's chastening is done in love like a father disciplines his children because he loves them and for correction for their good. Hebrews talks about this chastening those he love who are sons and not slaves.

brianeschen · #6 (**permalink**) 09-02-2009, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augusta

I read somewhere can't remember but it may have been Sibbes "Bruised Reed", that God's chastening is done in love like a father disciplines his children because he loves them and for correction for their good. Hebrews talks about this chastening those he love who are sons and not slaves.

Proverbs 3 talks about this same principle.

Quote:

Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
Pro 3:12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

From Matthew Henry . . .

Quote:

2. What will be our comfort when we are in affliction. (1.) That it is a divine correction; it is the chastening of the Lord, which, as it is a reason why we should submit to it (for it is folly to contend with a God of incontestable sovereignty and irresistible power), so it is a reason why we should be satisfied in it; for we may be sure that a God of unspotted purity does us no wrong and that a God of infinite goodness means us no hurt. It is from God, and therefore must not be despised; for a slight put upon the messenger is an affront to him that sends him. It is from God, and therefore we must not be weary of it, for he knows our frame, both what we need and what we can bear. (2.) That it is a fatherly correction; it comes not from his vindictive justice as a Judge, but his wise affection as a Father. The father corrects the son whom he loves, nay, and because he loves him and desires he may be wise and good. He delights in that in his son which is amiable and agreeable, and therefore corrects him for the prevention and cure of that which would be a deformity to him, and an alloy to his delight in him. Thus God hath said, As many as I love I rebuke and chasten, Rev_3:19. This is a great comfort to God's children, under their afflictions, [1.] That they not only consist with, but flow from, covenant-love. [2.] That they are so far from doing them any real hurt that, by the grace of God working with them, they do a great deal of good, and are happy means of their satisfaction.

buggy · #7 (**permalink**) 09-04-2009, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTB

No, it is called discipline when the elect face the natural (not legal) consequences of their sin.

Incidentally, we should also acknowledge that any good natural consequences that the reprobate experience is really punishment deferred--to experience good without true thankfulness to God is to store up His wrath.

I second that - however God will allow the elect to face the consequence of their sin for a purpose. I am an living example - received a very serious injury after doing a foolish act, after flaring up at my mum.

The injury was serious enough to put me out of action for awhile, but not until it was some long-term one, or even permanent. (I am now able to walk normally now =)) I was told that a few more inches broken glass penetrates my leg or my head, I might have been crippled or even died. Anger was always a problem I faced since childhood, it almost got me expelled from school twice.

God will chatise His children, but always for a good purpose, and always ready to show mercy and forgive.

OPC'n · #8 (**permalink**) 09-04-2009, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyler

no

edit: No, God chastens Christians. He doesn't punish them.

***Contra_Mundum*** · #9 (**permalink**) 09-04-2009, 09:57 AM

I have to agree with Paul,

"punishment" can be either disciplinary or retributive. It is a form.

When we use the words punishment/discipline in a sort-of parallel disjunction, making one spiritual vs. the other, we are heading for a bigger mistake.

That mistake is in always thinking, then, of "discipline" in its negative connotation. We've associated it in parallel with "punishment" without sanctifying intent.

But discipline is also positive, and we ought to remember that.

Not even the Bible invariably avoids calling Christian correction "punishment." Take the direct case of church discipline in Corinth:

2Co 2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.

There you go.

Let's be careful not to take certain interpretations, and so formulate them that we become blind to the true nuances.

Zenas · #10 (**permalink**) 09-04-2009, 10:15 AM

God disciplines, not punishes.

Scott1 · #11 (**permalink**) 09-04-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Hebrews 12

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

It's hard to know all the context of what the Associate Pastor was saying.

There is much general teaching out there that the Christian life is without cost, pain, suffering or denial. It's everything from the "prosperity gospel" to "making Jesus Savior but not Lord." It comes from wrong teaching that God only is glorified by "love" (with that being defined as excluding discipline, punishment, chastisement). These come from a basic misunderstanding of what Scripture teaches.

Chastening comes for our sins as believers as the passages above illustrate. It is toward the end of holiness, obedience toward God, protecting us from the destruction sin leads to it. Our chastening shows God's love for us, and reveals the depth of our disobedience against the God we profess.

The consequences of sin for a believer in this life can be similar to those of a believer:

Quote:

Westminster Larger Catechism

Question 28: What are the punishments of sin in this world?

Answer: The punishments of sin in this world are either inward, as blindness of mind, a reprobate sense, strong delusions, hardness of heart, horror of conscience, and vile affections; or outward, as the curse of God upon the creatures for our sakes, and all other evils that befall us in our bodies,names, estates, relations, and employments; together with death itself.

Also, remember every believer will account at the judgment seat of Christ. In this generation, we have almost forgotten that. There will be rewards and chastisements of some sort for believers. Scripture does not give us much information about what those will be, but we know there will be.

Quote:

I Corinthians 3

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

One of the chief aims of church discipline is to check sin, to rebuke it, reclaim the sinner, protect others from its effects... all to the end of the glory of God.

So, in the end, a believer who sins suffers here and at the judgment. Not loss of salvation- glory be to God for that.

Oh, that God's people would believe and live in light of that- for His Honor and His Glory.