?

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Tim Potts
Siloam Springs, Arkansas
Member of Covenant Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Student at John Brown University
-Let the church change the world and rather than the world change the church-

Can you give me an example Tim?

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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

Restate your question more clearly.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I shall suggest a tentative example, that of the apostles:

They were commanded not to preach or teach in that name, and their response has made tyrants tremble throughout the centuries,

"We ought to obey God rather than man."

But I don't think that is what you are getting at.

Do you mean like, abstaining from condemning homosexuality from the pulpit?

Gabe your online, but your not.... online (ichat). Why do you do this nonsense?

I mean like.... drinking wine underage



[Edited on 7-21-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

I'm in a computer lab at IU.

I would definitely answer yes, largely because if we do not, the command in Scripture to obey the magistrate would be meaningless. I believe that the only way we are justified in disobeying the magistrate is if their instructions would force us to sin. But if one adds that we do not even have to obey them when their restrictions go further than God's (albeit without going against them), when would obeying them apply? In other words, if the answer to your question was no, we would never have to look to the magistrate for any restriction on our actions, only look to God's Law and do anything that it allows, disregarding anything the magistrate says, hence rendering the command to obey the law of the land meaningless.

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Chris


A passion to know and reflect Christ by living and demonstrating the truth and richness of the historic Reformed faith

Visit My Website Here

Christopher Blum
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Issues of Christian Liberty are not ones we HAVE to obey, lest we be sinning.

A Christian who is 17 doesn't HAVE to drink alcohol, against the gov't's mandates, in order to NOT be sinning.

So, moonshining and bootlegging is out? You're no fun:P

Exactly.

Ok we know that drinking wine in moderation is not inherently sinful. Your saying that if the government were to outlaw the consumption of it in general it becomes sinful?

I say it doesn't. And underage drinking in the presence of a legal guardian at home is not against the law.

"I did not know that" - (with my best Johnny Carson accent)

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The Piper will lead us to reason...

Rick Larson
Hope Christian and Missionary Alliance Church
Apple Valley, MN.

"And underage drinking in the presence of a legal guardian at home is not against the law."

I believe that is only true in Wisconsin.

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Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA): "A bunch of hippie Calvinists"
Winston-Salem, NC

If I'm not mistaken, it is the law in Louisiana, too. I looked it up a few months ago at New Years when my mom and I wanted to get a bottle of champagne. (I was two weeks shy of 21 at the time.)

And no, I don't think that an underage person has any Christian right to consume alcohol. I agree 100% with Gabriel; it's only okay if you would be sinning not to break the law.

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Evie B.
Cambridge, Massachusetts
Attending Park Street Church, Boston

"Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old. Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert." --Isaiah 43:18-19 (ESV)

So God gives the government the authority to create morality in certain issues?

No. A government's power is ministerial, not legislative. If a government creates morality out of thin air, by what standard do you judge that morality to be good or bad?

Governments don't create morality, they create public policy. It is immoral to violate the lawful decrees of government.

That's true in at least several states. Some states, though, have a zero-tolerance approach to underage drinking of alcohol. Technically, this bars (so to speak), say, a 14-year-old from partaking of the Lord's Supper where wine is served. Unless the First Amendment (religious freedom) trumps that law. In the Prohibition thread, I noted that an exception was made for wine in the Lord's Supper. I don't know if such an exception exists today in certain states for underage communicant church members. I'd like to research this further. I certainly think that such government laws are unwarranted, counterproductive (leads to binge drinking at age 21 or sooner) and possibly unBiblical, ie., unjust. A parent should be able to give their son a beer on his 18th birthday, for example, and a church should be able to serve wine at the Lord's Supper to all communicant members. As Montisquieu said, "Useless laws weaken necessary laws."

[Edited on 7-22-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

I was confused about the Wisconsin thing. I believe I heard Wisconsin is the only state that allows children to drink with their parents in taverns. However a quick glance through the Ohio Revised Code suggests the same is true there.

Man I was decieved all those years!

By the way Andrew, here is a partial answer to your inquiry:

"No underage person shall knowingly order, pay for, share the cost of, attempt to purchase, possess, or consume any beer or intoxicating liquor in any public or private place. No underage person shall knowingly be under the influence of any beer or intoxicating liquor in any public place. The prohibitions set forth in division (E)(1) of this section against an underage person knowingly possessing, consuming, or being under the influence of any beer or intoxicating liquor shall not apply if the underage person is accompanied by a parent, spouse who is not an underage person, or legal guardian, or the beer or intoxicating liquor is given by a physician in the regular line of the physician's practice or given for established religious purposes." [emphais mine]

[Edited on 22-Jul-2005 by SRoper]

In taverns? Oh, that's different... I suppose some other states (Ohio?) may allow this, but in Louisiana, it's only legal in the home.

BondSlave, I think the issues of whether the underage drinking laws are unjust and whether we still have to obey them are two different questions. You could argue that the government doesn't have the God-granted authority to place such restrictions on people, but I still don't think that gives a person the right to break the law if he can obey the law without sinning. I suppose I can't prove this, but the entirety of the NT seems to support obeying the law of the Roman Empire until it conflicted with the law of God.

Actually, it seems to me that an underage drinking law that prohibits it only outside the home and church places the real authority here where it ought to be--with the parents.

Thanks. This is helpful. Can you tell me what jurisdiction this applies to?