I hear some people say that a true Christian will not sin, saying that if we go on sinning we are not truly saved, implying also that it is possible to not sin.
In my own walk I am learning more and more everyday of my own sin and how hard it is to not sin, thus creating more of a dependance upon Christ as my mediator between myself and God. Sin creates a need that can only be met by Christ and his mediatoral work. Rather than getting better and better everyday (in the sense that I will not sin at all today) I am infact becoming more aware of the fruitlessness in thinking that I can obtain a sinless life.
Anyway my question is, as Christians are we supposed to get to where we do not sin?
__________________ Erick Bohndorf, Covenant Baptist Church, KS http://qayaqtraveler.blogspot.com/ The question for us today is, will we be like the majority of Israel and continue to look in fear at the giants in the land and urge our fellow Christians to be "realistic," or will we be like Joshua and Caleb and faithfully follow our king, trusting to fulfill every one of his promises completely?
I hear some people say that a true Christian will not sin, saying that if we go on sinning we are not truly saved, implying also that it is possible to not sin.
In my own walk I am learning more and more everyday of my own sin and how hard it is to not sin, thus creating more of a dependance upon Christ as my mediator between myself and God. Sin creates a need that can only be met by Christ and his mediatoral work. Rather than getting better and better everyday (in the sense that I will not sin at all today) I am infact becoming more aware of the fruitlessness in thinking that I can obtain a sinless life.
Anyway my question is, as Christians are we supposed to get to where we do not sin?
The heretical idea that we can't sin is called "complete sanctification", AKA perfectionism.
We are given a new heart, but still have a sin nature. Our depravity remains total, in that every part of our being is touched by sin, yet God continues to "condemn sin in the flesh".
The problem here is to low of a view of sin. If we compare God's law, or Christ's righteousness, we always fall short and are thus sinners. If someone had a day without sinning, that would mean they had a day as righteous as a day in Christ's life. That is blasphemy.
Anyway, what you are saying is exactly the perspective that a Christian should have about their own walk.
__________________
Grace and Peace in Christ,
Brett Rader
Member
Redeemer Presbyterian(PCA)
Austin, TX
Donald Cargill, a Scottish Covenanter, once said, "Those who know themselves best fear themselves most." As Christians progress in their sanctification, and die more and more to ourselves and live more and more unto righteousness, we find that our hearts are blacker than we ever realized when we first cried out to God to save us. Though we have a new heart of flesh within us to replace that stony heart, Christians do continue to wrestle with sin (see the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 7) and we must daily confess our sins seeking forgiveness in the name of our advocate, Christ Jesus (see 1 John 1.8-10), and we will not leave off this body of sin until we enter the presence of the Lord.
__________________
Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project
"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole
Yes, at times we can fall into diverse sin. The Christian, however, will struggle against that sin and seek grace to not sin. Also if a true child of God continues in a season of sin he should expect eventual chastisement.
If we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us.
__________________
Donald Jacobs
Marysville. WA
Cascade Church (CRCNA)
Any person who teaches sinless perfection is a heretic and I do mean a heretic. How many of the saints have fell victim to this nonsense? Spurgeon had some sound words for this:
Said the prince of preachers CH Spurgeon, "There are some professing Christians who can speak of themselves in terms of admiration; but, from my inmost heart, I loathe such speeches more and more every day that I live. Those who talk in such a boastful fashion must be constituted very differently from me. While they are congratulating themselves, I have to lie humbly at the foot of Christ's Cross, and marvel that I am saved at all, for I know that I am saved. I have to wonder that I do not believe Christ more, and equally wonder that I am privileged to believe in Him at all-to wonder that I do not love Him more, and equally to wonder that I love Him at all-to wonder that I am not holier, and equally to wonder that I have any desire to be holy at all considering what a polluted debased, depraved nature I find still within my soul, notwithstanding all that divine grace has done in me. If God were ever to allow the fountains of the great deeps of depravity to break up in the best man that lives, he would make as bad a devil as the devil himself is. I care nothing for what these boasters say concerning their own perfections; I feel sure that they do not know themselves, or they could not talk as they often do. There is tinder enough in the saint who is nearest to heaven to kindle another hell if God should but permit a spark to fall upon it. In the very best of men there is an infernal and well-nigh infinite depth of depravity. Some Christians never seem to find this out. I almost wish that they might not do so, for it is a painful discovery for anyone to make; but it has the beneficial effect of making us cease from trusting in ourselves, and causing us to glory only in the Lord."
Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley, Wilderness Road Baptist Assembly.
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann. www.wildernessroadbaptist.org
Any person who teaches sinless perfection is a heretic and I do mean a heretic. How many of the saints have fell victim to this nonsense? Spurgeon had some sound words for this:
Said the prince of preachers CH Spurgeon, "There are some professing Christians who can speak of themselves in terms of admiration; but, from my inmost heart, I loathe such speeches more and more every day that I live. Those who talk in such a boastful fashion must be constituted very differently from me. While they are congratulating themselves, I have to lie humbly at the foot of Christ's Cross, and marvel that I am saved at all, for I know that I am saved. I have to wonder that I do not believe Christ more, and equally wonder that I am privileged to believe in Him at all-to wonder that I do not love Him more, and equally to wonder that I love Him at all-to wonder that I am not holier, and equally to wonder that I have any desire to be holy at all considering what a polluted debased, depraved nature I find still within my soul, notwithstanding all that divine grace has done in me. If God were ever to allow the fountains of the great deeps of depravity to break up in the best man that lives, he would make as bad a devil as the devil himself is. I care nothing for what these boasters say concerning their own perfections; I feel sure that they do not know themselves, or they could not talk as they often do. There is tinder enough in the saint who is nearest to heaven to kindle another hell if God should but permit a spark to fall upon it. In the very best of men there is an infernal and well-nigh infinite depth of depravity. Some Christians never seem to find this out. I almost wish that they might not do so, for it is a painful discovery for anyone to make; but it has the beneficial effect of making us cease from trusting in ourselves, and causing us to glory only in the Lord."
I hear some people say that a true Christian will not sin, saying that if we go on sinning we are not truly saved, implying also that it is possible to not sin.
In my own walk I am learning more and more everyday of my own sin and how hard it is to not sin, thus creating more of a dependance upon Christ as my mediator between myself and God. Sin creates a need that can only be met by Christ and his mediatoral work. Rather than getting better and better everyday (in the sense that I will not sin at all today) I am infact becoming more aware of the fruitlessness in thinking that I can obtain a sinless life.
Anyway my question is, as Christians are we supposed to get to where we do not sin?
People who quote in order to prove that it's possible for a Christian to reach a point in his life at which he no longer sins clearly skipped over the earlier text in the same letter ...
John makes no qualification about when our sins need forgiveness, or when we shall still have sin in our lives. We shall always stand in need of Christ's blood covering our sins, past present and future.
__________________
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA http://semperubi.rtrc.net
"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)
Yes, true Christians sin...if they say they don't they are liars. (I John 1:8)
It is stupid and arrogrant to play such games when we have a God who is ready and willing to forgive repentent sinners.
__________________
Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN
"Why wasn't God watching? Why wasn't God listening? Why wasn't God there for Georgia Lee?"
- Tom Waits
But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;you consider it to take it in hand. The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless. - Psalm 10:14
As Christians progress in their sanctification, and die more and more to ourselves and live more and more unto righteousness, we find that our hearts are blacker than we ever realized when we first cried out to God to save us.
Very true.
The man who discipled me once gave me a quote that I've always kept close at hand: "The sign of growing perfection, is growing awareness of imperfection."
__________________
Kevin Guillory
Pastor
Redeemer Christian Congregation
Baltimore, MD
I don't interpret Scripture. Scripture
interprets itself. And in the process ...
Scripture interprets me!
We are no longer in sin, but there is still sin in us. The old Adam needs to be drowned, sin needs to be starved - daily!
Yet there always is more mercy in Christ than there is sin is us. By looking to HIm the Christian avoids both extremes: pride (Legalism) and despair (Antinomianism). I have come across this quote (I paraphrase): "I am not what I was, I am not what I could be, I am not what I should be, and I am not what I will be, but I am what I am - by the grace of God." The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin - past, present and future.
__________________
Independent Reformed Baptist Church (NE England, nr. Durham)
We are no longer in sin, but there is still sin in us. The old Adam needs to be drowned, sin needs to be starved - daily!
Yet there always is more mercy in Christ than there is sin is us. By looking to HIm the Christian avoids both extremes: pride (Legalism) and despair (Antinomianism). I have come across this quote (I paraphrase): "I am not what I was, I am not what I could be, I am not what I should be, and I am not what I will be, but I am what I am - by the grace of God." The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin - past, present and future.
Perfectionism is just the most insidious and evil system. Of course, no one is perfect in this life (and 1st John is the perfect Scripture to go to with reference to it), even the best of men fail to "love the Lord their God with ALL their heart" in their most holy achievements. So even the BEST we ever do is tainted by original and actual sin.
And then, since sin is inevitable, the Perfectionist finds new language to describe his moral failings--mistakes, errors of form, "whoops! hahaha", "if I'm mad, it MUST BE righteous indignation, cuz I don't sin," etc.
Now then, there is another place for folks who deny that Christians sin to end up, and that is denying Perseverance of the Saints. If Christians don't sin, but this fellow sins, then (in this view) either he wasn't a Christian, or he stopped being a Christian, and has to get it back. There are poor people on this yoyo until the string breaks.
YES, Christians sin. Its a terrible thing, since such sinning is so unnecessary, the slavery to the old master having been ended by a greater, divine power. But this is a GOSPEL truth, that we need the conviction of our present sin to keep us LOOKING unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith, the Perfecter of our salvation. The gospel isn't merely for that past Day of salvation, but for Today, the day of salvation, and Tomorrow.
Maranatha.
__________________ Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the Destroyer Acts 2:36 - 1 Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James 4:12
When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give us
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I came out of a strict Arminian church which taught that any little infraction would cause God to be angry, and one to lose their salvation. It has been lately that I have been told by Reformed people that quote 1 John 3:6 to say that if Christians sin maybe they are not saved. On the other hand, there are Reformed people who seem to act like they have a license to do almost anything because of grace. I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I came out of a strict Arminian church which taught that any little infraction would cause God to be angry, and one to lose their salvation. It has been lately that I have been told by Reformed people that quote 1 John 3:6 to say that if Christians sin maybe they are not saved. On the other hand, there are Reformed people who seem to act like they have a license to do almost anything because of grace. I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.
First John 3 is best understood as teaching believers do not sin with the full consent of their will.
Yes, regrettably reformed churches can suffer from this almost schizophrenic view of salvation -- saved by grace, show it by works. In reality we are saved by grace and we show it by grace; but it doesn't always come out sounding like that.
First John 3 is best understood as teaching believers do not sin with the full consent of their will.
Yes, regrettably reformed churches can suffer from this almost schizophrenic view of salvation -- saved by grace, show it by works. In reality we are saved by grace and we show it by grace; but it doesn't always come out sounding like that.
You can say THAT again!
__________________ The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873 Meg Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR
It seems as though a lot of people are afraid that if they truly teach that salvation, as well as sanctification, are all of grace that men will use that grace as a license to sin. This discounts the fact that regeneration breaks the power of sin and that the Holy Spirit will not allow those that He indwells to continue in a lifestyle of sinfulness. The power of sin, which is DEATH, has been broken in God’s children. God’s children have been translated out of the realm of darkness into the realm of light.
While on earth and in these corruptible bodies we will sin. Everything we do is tainted with it. Christians are no longer condemned for their sin because Jesus Christ fully and completely paid the penalty for it.
Christians DESPISE their sin. If they were given the option to never sin again they would take it in a heartbeat. Anyone who WANTS to continue in sin is probably not a believer in the first place.
__________________
Jon Adams
Member of Grace Bible Church
Pleasant Hill, CA
"When I cease to preach salvation by faith in Jesus, put me into a lunatic asylum, for you may be sure that my mind is gone." - Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892)
Here is the commentary from the July 15, 2007 White Horse Inn program. I love the anecdote regarding Duke John's son:
Quote:
Grace & Law
We are in our year long series "A Time for Truth" and the heart of the truth that we're talking about in this particular section is sola gratia, grace alone. We've talked about sola Scriptura, Scripture alone, solo Christo, by Christ alone, and now we're taking up sola gratia, by grace alone.
As he lay dying, Duke John's son was comforted with the gospel that Luther's ministry was then making plain. Although the Reformation wasn't yet fully tolerated in the empire, overwhelmed by the sheer good news of it all Duke John's daughter-in-law asked, "Father, why cannot this be preached to everyone?" The Duke replied, "It is to be told to the dying, not to the living."
There's always been a suspicion that grace is a little too comforting. That the news is too good, it's a little dangerous to tell people that it's all of God, all of grace. Unleashed in its full force such preaching would surely undermine all sense of moral earnestness. The fear of punishment and hope of rewards is the only thing that can really get us off the dime, even though on our deathbed we may be told that Christ is enough after all. A lot of Christians today can tell similar stories, when they became a Christian they were told that Christ died for their sins past, present, and future, and promised eternal life to all who believe. But then, after their conversion, they were gradually buried under a weight of conditions. If you follow these steps you can live the victorious Christian life. If you do this God will smile upon you. What, you're not living in victory? Perhaps you're not following the steps. Start over. Rededicate yourself, try harder. It's actually pretty easy, you know, especially with the help of the Holy Spirit. Eventually, having begun in the Spirit, they're trying to be perfected in the flesh, because that's the message they're getting, or at least thinking they're getting, in church.
Well the Apostle Paul proclaimed the gospel in a similar setting. Like the Pharisees in Jesus' famous parable, Paul's opponents in the Galatian church were outwardly pious. They even thanked God that they were not like the others, apparently paying lip service to grace. But crying out, "Lord, be merciful to me a sinner", the bartender went home justified rather than the Pharisee that day, says Jesus.
__________________
Bob Vigneault (Bawb Vēēn-yo)
"We are God's children and He's the Father of all fathers and we need to obey him." Jean-Baptiste Vigneault (5)
I always look forward to having Mike Horton put something in just the perfect way.
__________________
Rich
Northern VA
PCA
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Any person who teaches sinless perfection is a heretic and I do mean a heretic. How many of the saints have fell victim to this nonsense? Spurgeon had some sound words for this:
Said the prince of preachers CH Spurgeon, "There are some professing Christians who can speak of themselves in terms of admiration; but, from my inmost heart, I loathe such speeches more and more every day that I live. Those who talk in such a boastful fashion must be constituted very differently from me. While they are congratulating themselves, I have to lie humbly at the foot of Christ's Cross, and marvel that I am saved at all, for I know that I am saved. I have to wonder that I do not believe Christ more, and equally wonder that I am privileged to believe in Him at all-to wonder that I do not love Him more, and equally to wonder that I love Him at all-to wonder that I am not holier, and equally to wonder that I have any desire to be holy at all considering what a polluted debased, depraved nature I find still within my soul, notwithstanding all that divine grace has done in me. If God were ever to allow the fountains of the great deeps of depravity to break up in the best man that lives, he would make as bad a devil as the devil himself is. I care nothing for what these boasters say concerning their own perfections; I feel sure that they do not know themselves, or they could not talk as they often do. There is tinder enough in the saint who is nearest to heaven to kindle another hell if God should but permit a spark to fall upon it. In the very best of men there is an infernal and well-nigh infinite depth of depravity. Some Christians never seem to find this out. I almost wish that they might not do so, for it is a painful discovery for anyone to make; but it has the beneficial effect of making us cease from trusting in ourselves, and causing us to glory only in the Lord."
