Is it correct to say that, as Christians, "Our thankfulness is a debt that we owe to God"? My understanding is that before our justification we are in debt as sinners against God, but now as Christians all our debts have been counted to Christ, who has paid them all. Since our salvation by grace through faith is a gift of God, it seems incorrect to consider ourselves as debtors to grace, because the point of a gift is that no debt is owed for it. If you've read any of John Piper's Future Grace then you are probably familiar with this line of reasoning. I ask this because I heard a reformed pastor say that "our thankfulness is a debt that we owe to God."

Edit:
P.S. It's not my intention to "strain at gnats" over said pastor's word choice, his saying it only brought to mind the general issue of the use of the term "debtors" as applied to Christians, and I wanted to get the PB take on this general issue.

__________________
Dan Dorman
Member of Pilgrim OPC in my hometown-Bangor, Maine
Currently attending Christ the King OPC in Longview, Texas, where I am a college student

“The happiness of the creature consists in rejoicing in God, by which also God is magnified and exalted” -Jonathan Edwards
What is meant by "Christian Hedonism"?

Hi Dan,

I certainly wouldn't want to discourage you from asking questions, but I have to admit that I'm surprised that this is a question at all. I don't know what John Piper has said, but I think it's painfully clear that we owe God a debt of thanksgiving because of what He has done for us. It could also be said that we owe God a debt of praise and worship as well. All of these things are due to God not only for what He has done, but simply because of who He is.

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Trevor James
Ruling Elder, St. Paul's RBC
Oreland, PA.

1689 London Baptist Confession

Sons as debtors? While we owe everthing we are to God, it was purchased by Christ and given to us as a gift. No legal debt.

__________________
Jonathan
College Student
Grace Family Fellowship {SBC}
Kentucky

... yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 8:6

I agree that we do owe a great debt to God (thankfulness or not) but I would not equate thankfulness as repayment of a debt. Thankfulness is more of a desire than a duty. For Paul's answer to the statement "sin in order that grace may abound" in Romans 6:1 is not 'do this and live' but 'live [in Christ] and do this'.

Consider this summary of thankfulness from the Heidelberg Catechism, Q&A 86:

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA

"What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!"
John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)

I am very interested in this discussion, because it came up last week at church when we were discussing two lines from hymns:

"But drops of grief can ne'er repay the debt of love I owe" and "O to grace how great a debtor, daily I'm constrained to be"

In a sense, to want to pay back something to God for what He has done could be construed as works, but in another sense giving up everything to God is the logical thing to do when all has been given up for you. I think that is perhaps what the writer meant by debt of love.

__________________
J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

Not debt so much as our "reasonable service."

Romans 12:1

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. It doesn't merit us anything, or pay for our atonement. It is a result and response to our free justification.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

But is "debt" the right word? Certainly, thankfulness and praise should be our response, and God absolutely deserves thankfulness and praise for who He is and what He has done. However, being "debtors" implies that we are somehow supposed to "pay God back" for his grace, which is impossible, since it takes His grace for us to even respond with thankfulness, praise, and good works. And it is an insult to grace if we are supposed to pay it back as a debt.

And I'm sure, seeing through a more charitable lens, that such is all the reformed pastor meant. He probably meant "debt" in the sense that our thankfulness will be never-ending. That's how I would put the most charitable light on it, in upholding the good names of our neighbors.

Yes, I agree, it's not my intention to cast him in an uncharitable light. I think we'd be in agreement if we were to discuss it. What he said only brought to mind in general the issue of the use of the term "debtors" applied to Christians, and this has been a question in my mind since reading Piper's take on it a while back. My intention is just to hear the PB take on the use of the term "debtors" as applied to Christians.

As Joshua said, "debt" in the sense that our thankfulness will be never-ending. I think that's an excellent way of putting it. "Debt" in the sense of what is "due" to the glory of God, yes---"debt" as in "pay God back," absolutely not.

Two points:

1) One can be in debt and never repay the amount. Even if we were in debt to God it wouldn't imply that we could pay Him back. An eternally outstanding imbalance in our relationship with God seems somewhat reasonable.

2) We are owned by God, and that includes our assets and liabilities. The debt itself would therefore be owned by God and would therefore be written off in His accounts.

But, as others have said, it's very likely that this was simply loose language rather than doctrine!

__________________
Paul
No denomination, affiliated with FIEC
"Deliver me from worldly dispositions, for I am born from above and destined for glory" - Valley of Vision
"They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation" - Peter

But do Christians in some sense still "owe a great debt to God"? Hasn't Christ paid all of our debts?

I'm not sure I can agree with you. ( I agree with the fact that it's probably looseness of language at root here)

Debt cannot be owned by God in this sense if it's debt to God - debt could be written off, but I don't think the financial interpretation you've given to the picture works.

Debt presumes the theoretical possibility of paying off the debt. Whether one ever actually pays it off is irrelevant to whether a sum can be properly regarded as debt. Since we can never in any way pay the debt that we owe (if one can talk about it in that way) then we oughtn't refer to it as debt. We owe thanksgiving to God no matter what "debt" is assumed. Thanksgiving is incumbent upon His creatures regardless, and in no way can it be construed as something we owe him by way of payment of debt (or merely as a debtor).

__________________
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



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Hmmm... maybe we need a theological wrench.

Isn't that what the reformers threw into the gears of Rome?

For Piper's take on this, see the following PDF of one of his books, especially chapter 1, entitled "The Debtor’s Ethic: Should We Try to Pay God Back?": http://www.desiringgod.org/media/pdf...fg/bfg_all.pdf

Yes, and we always do, but thankfulness is not repayment of that debt because the answer to your second questions is yes.

Could "debt" be used here the way we might say in gratitude to someone, "man, I owe you one!" In many respects, we can't truly pay back the person who, say, stopped to help us change a tire. Only as believers, this is much larger. God has given to us undeserving, dead sinners far more I could ever give Him. All I can give back is an eternity of thanking and praising Him.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more it seems reasonable to say that this is an expression of love -- somewhat like our tithes and offerings. The great king and creator doesn't need anything from us, but he makes rightful demands on us, which are a delight when we recognize that they are an opportunity to serve Him.

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JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/

Thanks for your reply. Could you expound upon this? Because I don't understand what debt is still owed to God, if Christ has payed every debt we owe to God.

Dan,

I think maybe you're getting hung up on one of the meanings of "debt." One of the definitions of "debt" is along the lines of "obligation." We are "obligated" or we "ought" to give God thanksgiving. I don't think anyone here has the idea of repayment in mind.

I agree with your second paragraph. Here's the thing about what you said in the first paragraph, that "God has given to us undeserving, dead sinners far more I could ever give Him. All I can give back is an eternity of thanking and praising Him":
If we were debtors to grace, giving back an eternity of thanking and praising Him would only put us more in debt, because it is his grace that enables us to continually thank and praise Him. God has filled our cups to overflowing with his grace, and when we have drunk of that grace, what is our response? It is not, "you've done this for me, what can I now give back to you." Rather, our response is to continually offer our cups to Him in love, gratitude, and praise so that He can continually fill them to overflowing with his grace. And it his grace that enables us to do this.

We are continually or daily reminded of the debt because we continue to sin. And, as Joshua said above, we continue to be thankful which is also a reminder of our debt.

We are focusing here on the existential, which my response is also reflecting upon. If you are talking about the objective, finished work of Christ, then no, there is no righteousness or debt due to God: it has been paid in full. And praise the Lord for that!

I think I see what you're saying. Would you agree with the following:

We are continually reminded, not of our debt still owed, but of our debt graciously forgiven and paid, as we continue in faith, trusting in God's grace and fleeing to him in repentance, for forgiveness, when we continue to sin. Our thankfulness, love, and obedience is the response stemming from faith in our gracious God, but should not be considered as "payback."

To change the analogy and get a slightly different perspective:

The Lord is the inheritance of His people
The LORD is the portion of my inheritance and my cup (Ps. 16:5 NASB)

His people are the inheritance of the Lord
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, The people whom He has chosen for His own inheritance. (Ps. 33:12 NASB).

A "debt of gratitude" is very different from a monetary or legal debt.

Where is specific debt language used in the Bible in relation to our response to being justified?

__________________
Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK

His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

We owe the debt of creature to creator.

__________________
Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

But it is not an action of ourselves; it cannot be. As we are a new creation, it is the work of the Holy Ghost that brings the praise to our lips, that puts our hands in motion to do the good works. Therefore, how can it be something that we are 'obliged' to do when we are not at the helm of any goodness that comes from us?

__________________
Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

I think the issue that we're discussing really hangs on what we mean by "debt".

If we are asking if we are obliged to be thankful to God, then clearly the answer is yes. We ought to be thankful to God for reconciling us to himself; for bringing us to Himself for our everlasting enjoyment. However this does not mean that we ought to begrudgingly thank God, because that is not true thankfulness. In fact if thats what we think God desires, we forget that God looks not at the outward appearance, but at the heart (2Sam. 6:16).

Thankfulness is not an action, but an affection. It is that affection which overflows out of our hearts, and subsequently out of our mouths when we see who God is, and what He has done for us. If we truly see what God has done for us we will be thankful. We can not sit down and decide, "today I need to be thankful", we can only fight to see things as they actually are, and that will necessarily induce proper feelings.

The reason why I avoid the language is not because it's incorrect to say that we owe God things, but because of the way that people hear it. In our culture, people hear "you have a debt to be thankful to God" as, "you had better start acting thankful". And all too often this turns into "you had better start pretending that your thankful".

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Gregory Moeck
Calvary Bible Church
Burbank, CA

Josh, spot on.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

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Well put... I think we can see a little of that in this thread. I actually thought that this thread was going to die a quick death after a few posts. Silly me.

When This Passing World Is Done

When this passing world is done,
When has sunk yon glaring sun,
When we stand with Christ in glory,
Looking o'er life's finished story,
Then, Lord, Shall I fully know
Not till then how much I owe.

When I hear the wicked call
On the rocks and hills to fall,
When I see them start and shrink
On the fiery deluge brink,
Then, Lord, shall I fully know
Not till then how much I owe.

When I stand before the throne
Dressed in beauty not my own,
When I see thee as thou art,
Love thee with unsinning heart,
Then, Lord, shall I fully know
Not till then how much I owe.

When the praise of heaven I hear,
Loud as thunders to the ear,
Loud as many water's noise,
Sweet as harp's melodious voice,
Then, Lord shall I fully know
Not till then how much I owe.

Even on earth, as through a glass
Darkly, let thy glory pass,
Make forgiveness feel so sweet,
Make thy Spirit's help so meet,
Even on earth, Lord, make me know
Something of how much I owe.

Chosen not for good in me,
Wakened up from wrath to flee,
Hidden in the Saviour's side,
By the Spirit sanctified,
Teach me, Lord, on earth to shew,
By my love, how much I owe.

Oft I walk beneath the cloud,
Dark as midnight's gloomy shroud;
But, when fear is at the height,
Jesus comes, and all is light;
Blessed Jesus! Bid me shew
Doubting saints, how much I owe.

When in flow'ry paths I tread,
Oft by sin I'm captive led ;
Oft I fall but still arise
The Spirit comes the tempter flies
Blessed Spirit! bid me shew
Weary sinners, all I owe.

Oft the nights of sorrow reign,
Weeping, sickness, sighing, pain;
But a night thine anger burns,
Morning comes and joy returns;
God of comforts! bid me shew
To thy poor, how much I owe.

- Robert Murray McCheyne

__________________
Alex - Orange County, CA - PCA

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but
Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by
faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
Galatians 2:20

Manton - "The sovereign dominion of God is a great prop to our faith."

But this is a blessed "debt", one that we increasingly delight from the heart in "paying" - whatever the difficulties in this life.

Before we entered the life of the Covenant of Grace, our hearts were in the Covenant of Works and had to try to pay an accursed debt that we could never repay.

In the Covenant of Grace we do not have to obey in order to justify ourselves or in order to merit eternal life and avoid eternal death.

We obey because we ought to obey and because we are increasingly set free to obey and therefore delight in obeying because it goes with the grain of the new heart.

It's the difference between an Israelite slaving under Pharaoh among the brick kilns of Egypt, and that same Israelite being redeemed from Egypt and serving as a freeman and a priest in God's Tabernacle.

I really don't like the word debt. I can't separate it from the sin debt that was paid for by Christ. I appreciate Josh citing Romans 12:1,2. We are to perform our Christian duty in serving God. It is our reasonable service of worship. Call it an obligation, if you like.

I can't think of anywhere the Bible uses debt language in relation to our response to being justified. It uses debt language in relation to our state prior to justification:

I'm shocked that this thread is still going strong. "Debt" is an entirely appropriate word, unless one insists on placing it under a microscope! Do we "owe" God endless gratitude. Of course we do! That's all that is meant here by "debt." I think we're missing the forest for all the trees.

Trevor, then be happy in the forest you choose to wander in. I prefer not to use the word debt in relation to my service to God. I don't need a microscope to see plainly.

Well Bill, I am quite content. I am sorry however, that I struck such a nerve in you.

No idea what this means.

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

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Far from it. That was my way of telling you, "whatever floats your boat."

I like John Gill's comment on this -

...as that they were "debtors"; which is to be understood of them not as sinners, who as such had been greatly in debt, and had nothing to pay, and were liable to the prison of hell; for no mere creature could ever have paid off their debts; but Christ has done it for them, and in this sense they were not debtors: but they were so as saints, as men freed from condemnation and death; which doctrine of Christian liberty is no licentious one; it does not exempt from obedience, but the more and greater the favours are which such men enjoy, the more obliged they are to be grateful and obey; they are debtors, or trader obligation...

What's "trader obligation"? Liked the quote, though.