my can of worms that i want to open is on our liberties as Christians. what liberites do we have as Christians (Hypothetically) do we have the right to smoke if we are of legal age and same goes for drinking in the lines of legal age and not abusing it. explain

also what are other christian libirties that are taken for granted i.e. eating to much...

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Jordy Burchfield
Student of Theology Central Baptist College
Central Baptist Church-BMA Baptist
Conway AR
PO BOX 109 Conway AR, 72034

Christian liberty is the Freedom to obey Christ

[quite](Hypothetically) do we have the right to smoke if we are of legal age and same goes for drinking in the lines of legal age and not abusing it.[/quote]

It is more dangerous for you to eat a Big Mac than to smoke a cigar; same goes for drinking. More detail later.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Col 2:13-23

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations"” 21 "œDo not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch"� 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)"”according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

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Since it is incomparably the greatest dignity to be introduced into the company of angels, nay, to be made the associates of Christ, he who estimates this favor of God aright, will regard all other things as worthless. Then neither poverty, nor contempt, nor nakedness, nor famine nor thirst, will make his mind so anxious, but that he will sustain himself with this consolation. "Since the Lord has conferred on me the principal thing, it behooves me patiently to bear the loss of other things, which are inferior."--John Calvin

This is not a license to sin. The latter half of verse 23 is most important.

Luther is great help here:

"Do not suppose that the abuses of a thing may be avoided by prohibiting the thing itself. Men go wrong with women as well as wine. Should we then ban women?"

1) Remember moderation: drinking, smoking, eating, is all fine. but abusing it is sin. Gluttony and drunkeness are sins.
2) Remember your weaker brother. Not everyone, especially those from Fundamentalist backgrounds, understands Christian liberty the same way. You have to be aware of that and not flaunt your liberty and injure their conscience in the process.

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Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

to what has been said already.

The best treatment I have ever read on Christian liberty is that by J.G. Vos here called The Separated Life.

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

Great reference, Andrew!

Thanks! I hope it is a blessing to others as it has been to myself.

is it a falsehood to say the wine in the NT is unfirminted (not a speller) in south arkansas this is what is said as a rebutle to drinking and is seen as almost the extent of an unforgivable sin but on top of that at the same time the same congregation puts a dip in their mouth or lights up a smoke outside the church but excommunicates (lack of better word) christians that are seen drinking is this a fair situation

Jordy, do you know a fella by the name of Chris Mudd? I want to say he may have gone to school at CBC, but I'm not sure.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Attending CCRPC, Member of TRBC
Reformers & Puritans -lllll- Puritan Pub
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

No, or we wouldn't have been told not to be drunk on it! J.Vernon McGee (of otherwise sainted memory) has spread that yarn himself though I don't remember where he got it.

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

And to further your statement concerning the fermentation of wine:

If, as many fundamentalists argue, wine was unfermented in the Biblical days then Paul's warning, "Be ye not drunken with wine..." would be futile, at best.

Doh! Meg beat me.

On the subject of the lawfulness of drinking alcoholic beverages, I would recommend Ken Gentry's God Gave Wine.

hey josh no the name doesnt ring a bell but iv only been around here three years i grew up in your area... magnolia area

so the big question "When do we take it to far" (Christian Liberties)

Jordy,
The "taking it too far" thing still depends on the individuals involved.

true

A good sign that people have taken "it" too far, is when they get addicted. As christians, we are called not to be addicted to earthly pleasures. This raises these things above God who is to be first in everything.

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Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I agree with moderation (food, beer, etc). the question seems to then become what are we moderating? and what profit is it to our soul or survival? For example, many men have "moderatly" drank beer (not becoming addicted) but what profit is beer? it is not needed for survival such as food and so should be moderated much tighter. I believe christian liberty should be sharply taken in light of stewardship regarding things such as finance.

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Matthew Morales (Husband to Rachel)
Redeemer Presbyterian Church (Santa Rosa, CA)

"...But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word." Isaiah 66:2b (ESV)

"Judge not the Lord by feeble sense, But trust Him for his grace;
Behind a frowning providence He hides a smiling face"-William Cowper

Scripture and the Holy Spirit will "tell" you.

Enjoying my 20% ruby Port.....

:bigsmile:

Robin

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Robin
URCNA
Heidelberg, Ursinus, Belgic Confessions; Canons of Dordt
Revelation 14:2

God's gifts are meant to be enjoyed (cf. Ps. 104.15), not flaunted (Rom. 14). That said, our consciences are not bound by the brother with the least understanding of Christian liberty because then there would be no Christian liberty for anybody. Rather, weak brethren should be educated -- compassionately -- so that we do not draw lines of demarcation regarding good and evil conduct that God has not drawn. We ought to be discerning about those around us, but we ought also to give testimony to the gifts of God and not treat them as evil because others think them so.

Wine and tobacco are part of God's creation and wine in particular is commended by the Word of God in that it is repeatedly designated a blessing and especially in the context of the Lord's Supper where wine is ordained to represent the blood of Christ.

It is not necessary for everyone to have a taste for wine or tobacco, but it is wrong to denigrate them or treat them as vices because fundamentalists see them that way. God's creation is good and these gifts redound to his glory when used lawfully.

Drinking With Calvin and Luther by Jim West

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Craig French
Married and father of a beautiful daughter.
Member of Christ The Word, PCA
Toledo, OH

MY BLOG

is there anything that people try and label as a liberty not truely a liberty?

People use Rom 8:1 to defend all sorts of sin. For example, certain sexual activities.