As was mentioned in the thread about fundamentalism, sometimes fundamentalists are too extreme in their view of biblical separation. They seem to separate from most everybody and everything (slight exaggeration). People who don't believe in biblical separation sometimes are at the other extreme and don't separate from anybody or anything.

As with many things, the correct understanding of the teaching is somewhere in the middle between the two extremes.

I've copied an exerpt below from a fundamentalist church website that believes in biblical separation. The first and last sentences most would agree with:

We believe that all the saved should live in such a manner as not to bring reproach upon their Savior and Lord...Our objective is to please the Thrice Holy God in all that we do.

Sandwiched between those two good statements are other statements that may not be as good, but are based on the scriptures sited.

1. Based on the scriptures sited, and your beliefs about separation, how would you rewrite this part of the statement of faith?

2. Or, would you leave it as is?

3. If a person came to you who got saved after living the "life of Riley", what advice would you give him/her regarding separation from the world and other churches?

2Ti 3:1-5 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Rom 12:1,2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

1Jo 2:15-17 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.

2Jo 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed: For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds.

2Co 6:14-7:1 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

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Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

(particularly concerning their quip about music)

In my opinion, a return to singing Psalms, with the exclusion of instruments is the only way to snuff out the idea of musical instrument, hymns or praise songs, preferences that pervade the Churches today.

I just don't see how one who embraces musical instruments and non-canonical hymns in the stated worship of the Church has the grounds upon which to reject the inclusion of "praise choruses," guitars, drums, ________ (fill in the blank) also.

But I am ooohhhh so teachable.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

It looks pretty good overall, but I would delete "associations" from the first sentence and this entire sentence: "Taking the music of the night club and the world and mixing it with the words of scripture is an abomination unto God and should be repented of." I know music is a sensitive topic and I personally prefer a more traditional service, but I don't think they can make this statement based on Scripture.

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Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

Your suggestion makes sense. Instead of the focus being "not like the world", the focus is that its scripture - much easier to defend and less open to subjective decisions about what is and isn't proper music for worship.

I think. I mean, we should worship according to God's commands, and stop having our emphasis being on: "What is the world doing these days? We must do our dead-level best to de-emulate them!" If we just worship as God has commanded, we don't have to spend all the extra efforts avoiding the foolishness of the world.

Here's what we have so far. Any other changes needed to make this a good statement about Biblical separation?

I think we're saying the same thing, your's was just a little more articulate and better stated.

Dunno 'bout that, Bob.

"As was mentioned in the thread about fundamentalism, sometimes fundamentalists are too extreme in their view of biblical separation. They seem to separate from most everybody and everything (slight exaggeration). People who don't believe in biblical separation sometimes are at the other extreme and don't separate from anybody or anything."

I was raised as an independent baptist that thought like this - we only grouped with other people that didn't group.

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Thomas Weddle
Member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church
Evansville, Indiana

Another question just came to mind. Do any of you folks have any statement(s) at all on your church website about separation?

Me too. At one time I probably would have separated from the majority of people on this board. Between the infant baptism and the drinking and the smoking and the listening to worldly music and ... would there be anybody left?

My current church has all their mission, values, philosophy, etc in MP3 format, but here's the worship philosphy of my old church (Briarwood Presby); I couldn't find anything on separation per se:

We desire true worship that:

Glorifies God
Edifies the body of Christ (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16)
Magnifies the message of salvation through Christ alone (1 Corinthians 14:24-25)

Reformed worship is God-centered and governed by the biblical guidelines given to us through scripture alone. In our worship, we seek to be connected to the best of the past without becoming idolatrous of the past (i.e., traditional, not traditionalism), contextualized in the present without allowing popular culture to dictate our approach to worship, and establishing worship that sets a standard for the future.

Drawing from all the bounty that God has given to His church, from the rich musical and liturgical traditions that have come down to us from our past to the exciting new movements of God today, enables us to set a worship “feast” or “banquet” before the people of God--a well-balanced “meal” to strengthen the body of Christ and keep her healthy spiritually.

I like the wisdom of the bolded part of your quote.

You make a good argument on guitars and drums etc...
My question is how do you only sing Psalms which never actually name the name of Christ? I know they point to him in type and shadow, I know the Psalms was God's songbook, but to disallow other songs, hymns or spiritual songs that actually name the name of Christ seems strange to me. Thoughts?

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Gage Browning (Layman)
Grace Community Presbyterian Church
PCA Fort Worth, Texas
www.posttenebraslux.squarespace.com

A statement about separation in a church's doctrinal statement is like saying, "Look at me, I'm a Fundy." and usually is evidence that "lifestyle" issues are added to the Gospel, such as drinking, smoking, movies, dress, often with a peculiar local interpretation of what Christians should be doing about all of these issues.

I, myself, am always suspicious when I hear churches that always talk about submission, rightly dividng the Word, or...the subject of this post, "separation".. it is code talk...

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

I'm with you, brother. I don't know that a return to a cappella EP is the only way to avoid this. But the question is, once instruments and songs of human composition are allowed in, by what standard are we to judge what we are to sing? As Dr. Rowland Ward wrote:

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Chris Poe--Attending Grace Community Baptist Church, Mandeville, LA

"There never was a man in the world without a creed. What is a creed? A creed is what you believe. What is a confession? It is a declaration of what you believe. That declaration may be oral or it may be committed to writing, but the creed is there either expressed or implied."—B.H. Carroll

J.G. Vos on Biblical Separation:

The Bible Doctrine of the Separated Life by Johannes G. Vos

I hate to continue too far down a rabbit trail that may lead to an EP debate, but what the hey - its "MY" thread.

The same standard a pastor uses when deciding what to preach in a sermon. A good pastor typically (I'd imagine) spends a good number of hours searching the scriptures, preparing their sermon, making sure what he says is correct. What if a pastor spent a proportional amount of time selecting the music with the same care he spends preparing sermons?

Howdy, Mr. Browning. I hate to be a copy and past kind of guy, but so as to not sidetrack this thread too much, and to not divulge my obscene ignorance abroad, allow me to refer you to this thread: Is the name of Jesus important in worship?

Blessings, Sir. And welcome again.

Thanks Joshua...I have seen that. My persuasion is probably different than many.

I think that Jesus' Hebrew name yeshuoah (spelling?) is used in the Psalms. It's translated Salvation (thanks to Rev. Winzer in that other thread).