When I was converted, God used scriptures to make absolutely clear to me that 1)He existed (though I was previously an athiest) and 2)that I had sinned against God and needed Jesus to save me. After that, I've learned some things here and there in my 'Christian journey', some of which I've had to unlearn.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

My question is, how does God lead us into truth? Or, how can a Christian know that God has taught him something, as opposed to something the Christian taught himself? To what extent can we know that God has taught us something?

Two hypothetical people study hard and dig into the scriptures, while earnestly praying that God would teach them the truth about a certain passage or topic. After many hours/days/weeks of study, the truth finally jumps out at them and they wonder why it took them so long to see it. They thank God for answering their prayer and teaching them the truth. But the two hypothetical people arrived at different conclusions.

How are we to know when God has lead us into a truth.

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Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

It is a common misunderstanding that the verse you quoted applies to every believer. The context was that the promise was given to the apostles who then had all truth revealled to them which they wrote down...aka the Scriptures. Calvin notes, "The Spirit, whom Christ promised to the apostles, is declared to be perfect Master or Teacher of truth And why was he promised, but that they might deliver from hand to hand the wisdom which they had received from him? The Spirit was given to them, and under his guidance and direction they discharged the office to which they had been appointed. He will lead you into all truth. That very Spirit had lead them into all truth, when they committed to writing the substance of their doctrine. Whoever imagines that anything must be added to their doctrine, as if it were imperfect and but half-finished, not only accuses the apostles of dishonesty, but blasphemes against the Spirit If the doctrine which they committed to writing had proceeded from mere learners or persons imperfectly taught, an addition to it would not have been superfluous; but now that their writings may be regarded as perpetual records of that revelation which was promised and given to them, nothing can be added to them without doing grievous injury to the Holy Spirit."

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Name: Richard
Church: Church of England, UK

That's what I've been taught and what I believe too. But does the Spirit still guide us into truth in some other way, in a way that we can know that the truth is from God, not from ourselves?

I am not convinced. I think that God established the Church to defend the truth and this truth is contained in the creeds and confessions of the Church.

I would say that the Spirit guides us in truth by testifying to us that the Word of God is truth.

WCOF 1.5
...our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (1Co 2:10-12)

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Larry Bray
Training for Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA
http://www.rpcb.org/

Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
"The best Christian is still a poor Christian" - R.B. Kuiper

I think this passage has limitation to conversion, ie believing the "words of the cross". I had asked a question in another thread. I am unaware of anywhere in biblical text that christians are promised the aid of the H.S. in biblical/theological instruction. I think it assumed by most christians of all faiths that He in fact does. However there seems to be lack of evidence that this is so. The original question of this thread is a good one. Does anyone know of such texts?

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Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ

I'm thinking, "Should I, or shouldn't I ask?" - (they say there's no such thing as a dumb question, but...) oh well, here goes. How might we differentiate the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness in our hearts, from say the 'burning in the bosom that (can't remember which) the Mormons or the JWs say they've experienced after they're backed into a corner. They hear something, and something inside tells them that what they're heard is true.

Now, I don't know if they actually do experience that burning in the bosom, or if that's just what they're told to say when backed in the corner. I'll assume for argument's sake that they're honest about it, and that their bosom burns.

This is why the authority of the Church is so important in recognising the truth.

There are of course problems with establishing both what is the church and possibly what does the church teach but being confessional it is rather easier for us reformed folk than most.

The important fact is that we are not alone in being lead to the truth but we have the church to guide and teach us.

It is so sad that much of the church has abdicated this responsibility.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

Those who argue church authority, are you not removing the problem just one step - viz. away from the individual to the body corporate. The question blhowes asked was about how we can know (given the differences among those who profess the Lord's name) that we have been led to those conclusions by God?

And what place does the "right of private judgement" have in your understanding?

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Satch Chikhlia, Reformed Baptist, Surrey, England

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God." Colossians 3.1

http://www.book-academy.co.uk For FREE downloadable pdf commentaries recommended by C.H. Spurgeon, Spurgeon's works, and Great Puritan works.

Yes, the thread has wandered from the basic question. What role if any does the H.S. have in comunicating truth to the believer via the scriptures? Any takers?

In this instance removing the problem one step is the the surest and safest course. It is God's own prescribed course. Eph. 5:18, 21, "but be filled with the Spirit ... submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." Phil. 3:16, "Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing."

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

I think that we must be careful not to equate the witness of the Holy Spirit with some kind of emotional response. The Spirit bears witness to the Scriptures, and the Scriptures themselves are the truth that He bears witness to.

If any spirit bears witness to something that is not the truth, then it's not the Spirit of God. The Book of Mormon is not truth therefore any spirit that bears witness to it is a spirit of the father of lies. One such example of the untruthfulness of the Book of Mormon is that it places the birth of Jesus at Jerusalem.

Certainly that's the way God would have us walk, but let's say there were two groups, say Presbyterian and Baptist, and you were in the group that was incorrect, whichever that might be. Following the prescribed guidelines, how then would you discern the truth of the other group?

Not by the Cartesian method of doubt leading to self-persuasion. We begin with faith. What is our primary concern as believers in Christ? First, to uphold the things most surely believed amongst us. Our primary concern is to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Then the differences can be discerned by a process of examining the fruits. Which distinctive fully contends for the "common salvation," which was once for all delivered to the saints? Which distinctive tends to bring the people of God together and which serves to cause and maintain divisions in the body of Christ? It is important to see that when it comes to a proper understanding of the truth, it is not merely tenets we are considering, but the tendencies which are inherent in those tenets to promote the glory of God and the good of the church.

God is perfectly capable of making Himself clear in scripture. Yet He chose to leave some issues indeterminate--subject to different interpretations by those truly seeking His will--an example being baptism of infants vs believers-only. Thus, pushing the argument one step back just changes the question as to which church to affiliate with since, in western society, we are given a choice. This raises some other questions:
1. If God guides the church into all truth, what is meant by "church". The local congregation? The demonination? The church universal?
2. What is meant by "all"? It certainly cannot include baptism since there are disagreements between serious Bible scholars. Could "all" mean those essential truths on which God expects us to agree? There are other instances in which "all" doesn't really mean "all". No one would argue that "all have sinned" means that Jesus sinned.
3. Is the individual necessarily obliged to agree on something like baptism with the church with which he or she affiliates?
4. Does the church have the right to insist on agreement on issues in which God has chosen not to be clear?

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

Yes a true church is the House of God, the pillar and ground of truth .. but as the BCF 1689 puts it ..

"...The purest churches under heaven are subject to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated as to become no churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan; nevertheless Christ always hath had, and ever shall have a kingdom in this world, to the end thereof, of such as believe in him, and make profession of his name."

When dealing with the question of the supreme judge in controversies there is no mention of the church but it does state:

"The supreme judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved.
( Matthew 22:29, 31, 32; Ephesians 2:20; Acts 28:23) "

From this I glean that a true church upholds and spreads the truth, but the truth is only to be found in the Word of God.

So we are still back to the question - who has the truth when Christians differ and how should we tell?

When we consider this work of the Holy Spirit, let's look here in Acts 8; The Spirit used Philip to open the word of God.
The word of God is the "all truth "we are going to receive,or welcome.
The means of grace, The gathered assembly of believer's, The word preached, The word prayed, group and private study, admonition, exhortation, are all the process God uses.

Here again, we see it this way;
2 Tim 3;14-17 also shows how we are to give ourselves to the word and meditation of it. We do what we are commande to do.It is not an option.
God has ordained the way and the means for us.
Even with our different understanding of baptism texts, it forces all of us to search the scripture daily, and I know I benefit when I see the discussions of covenant people, and families. We are all forced to work through these issues ,it makes me think that God in His wisdom has allowed us to flounder at times, and even get worked up and upset so we might seek the truth even more.

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Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

These issues are very complicated, and in my view seem to deal more with epistemological concerns than issues of dogmatic authority, at least as far as the OP's question is concerned.

That being said, if one submits one's judgment and interpretation of Scripture to the church's creeds and confessions, then one will still be functioning as the decisive factor, because then you'll need to apply reason and understanding to the historical data to figure out which church is the true church.

I hope that doesn't come across as pedantic, because I've thought these issues over quite a bit for myself. I just find it odd when some on here (not even necessarily on this thread, but I've seen this view on the PB) tout creeds and confessions in an overly confident way, the authority of the church, and that we should walk in old light. All of which I largely agree with, but if we took that tag-line consistently and not selectively, we should be in Rome or Constantinople.

I think that you must give the voice of the church a favorable weight and the benefit of the doubt, so to speak, in interpreting Scripture, but if you abandon your private convictions based on Scriptural study, you will end in your private convictions in evaluating history.

I don't see how that's avoidable. Because once you desire to submit to the church in that sense, as a Western Christian, then you'll need to figure out who was wrong when it came to leavened bread, the Filioque, and papal jurisdictional authority over the other metropolitans/archbishops. To make it even more confusing, most Protestants would say that the West was right in the pivotal issue of the Filioque, and that the East was right when it came to papal power. So one will need to make a crucial decision as to what constitutes the church. If one decides on the West, then yet another decision has to be made as to who to submit to, namely, now between Protestantism and the Bishop of Rome.

And if one finds oneself interpreting Scripture and applying it to these controversies, i.e., the Filioque, justification, etc., in order to decide which church to submit to, then we're really back at square one, aren't we?

I'm sure that some might see that as sophistic, and it might be, but this is my sincere look at the issues. Ultimately, I would say, probably with the Confession, but I'm not going to cut and paste, that some places in Scripture are plain and easily understood by all, and that, regardless of which church is "right", there is a body of consensus there. If I am trusting Christ and Christ alone for my salvation, and find myself in agreement with the broad plains of Scripture, and squarely in the consensus of the church, then I think that's a good indication of standing and certainty.

When it comes to baptism and other issues, I would just recognize that as important as they are, your salvation doesn't hinge on the matter. Live with a good conscience and interpret Scripture coram Deo, and leave your failings and errors to His mercy.

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Joshua Wiseman
Riverview PCA
Charleston, WV

"Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings."
- Psalm 17:8

The Holy Spirit speaks through the pages of Scripture. That by no means presumes that we will submit ourselves to that truth. Still being imperfect we are distracted by things like pride, (desire for adulation for our mighty intellects), autonomy, basically insert your human inclination here. Point being that in spite of the Truth being there, (particularly on issues that Scripture has a lot to say about) there will always be those who refuse to accept those teachings as stated and find arguments to induce Scripture to support their view. Particularly in western culture we love to assert our independence and that desire for independence often colors our doctrine. Its difficult to submit.


Php 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. ESV

I think we tend to forget the "fear and trembling" part.

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How often have you wondered why Christ should set His heart upon such a one as you! --Octavius Winslow

Lon Wadkins (Jesup, Iowa)
New Covenant Fellowship, OPC
Independence, Iowa