Abstinence is a choice. Not a biblical mandate.


The redirect to the Maters thread is: http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/vi....php?tid=15125

[Edited on 11-26-2005 by Scott Bushey]

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Grace Farmer
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Bedford, Texas

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* Ralph Wilms (7-10-1974)
* Church : Christengemeente Roermond (The Netherlands)
* Credobaptist who hold towards Covenant Theology
* Husband of Reena & father of Naomie and Gideon
* 1729 Goat Yard Declaration of Faith
* 1646 & 1689 Baptist Confession of faith
* 1595 The Lambeth Articles
* 1618-1619 The Canons of Dordt

What i really to know, is if it would be a problem for you to know if your pastor drinks once in the while a glass of red wine (without becoming druk) ?

Alcohol is a gift of God and not to be despised. To abstain from social drinking for personal reasons is one's perogative. But Jesus Himself turned water into wine as his first miracle and used wine in the institution of the Lord's Supper. To adopt a prohibitionist position would be to 1) bind the conscience where God's word has not done so; and 2) to violate the ordinance of the Lord's Supper by altering one of the commanded elements (ie., wine).

I commend Ken Gentry's book God Gave Wine which is a thorough Biblical defense of the moderationist position in contrast with the prohibitionist and abstentionist positions.

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

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Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I do not judge harshly those who drink alcohol in moderation. I understand it is not a crystal clear question, and fine and faithful Christians have come to different conclusions.

But has anyone actually read the book in question? Can anyone point out where Dr. Masters has gone astray in his reasoning?

It is well enough to state your position on the issue, but can anyone interact with Dr. Masters' arguments?

Blessings,

Jie-Huli

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Jie-Huli
Metropolitan Tabernacle Church
London, England

The only reasons I can think to abstain are:

1. if you may have a propensity to become a drunkard.
(like a family history of drunkards)

2. If it may be a stumbling block to someone else.

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

Andrew, do you know where I can buy this book new?

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Beth Montgomery
Wife to Steve,mom of Benjamin and John, Graduate Whitefield Theological Seminary



Blog: Journeying for Him

Tolle Lege, Tolle Lege!

Beth, You can get the book for $13 (the cheapest new price I have seen) right here.

I think this is wise. It is always helpful and respectful to be able to deal with opposing arguments on their ground - especially when they are the de facto position in the Church at large.

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Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

Thanks Andrew. Ordered it!

I would be VERY intrested in this book, more so I would be inrested in seeing these two positions debated as you sem to be looking for here. I hope someone would be intrested but I am not counting on it.

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Adam Leavelle
Westminster OPC
Roaring Spring Pa.

http://www.myspace.com/aleavelle
"Speak wisdom to a fool and he'll think you have no sense at all"

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Cool!

My opinion, based upon recent discussions, it would be best to abstain for fear of stumbling anyone. In the same way I choose to embrace EP because of it's 'safety' factor in worship, I choose to abstain from drinking anywhere but in the privacy of my own home.

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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

I haven't read Masters' book so I can't comment directly on what he says. Gentry's book deals with a prohibitionist named Stephen Reynolds. If you want to read a debate between Gentry and Reynolds on the subject, see the Volume II, Number 2 1991 issue of Antithesis.

Scott, Is this your position on tobacco too?

I have not considered that Andrew. Do you think this would be inconsistant not to as well consider tobacco? I guesss I have seen more people destroyed over alcohol/substance abuse than I have tobacco, so I am inclined more toward the abstinence on that issue.




[Edited on 11-25-2005 by Scott Bushey]

If it's a question of causing people to stumble, I'd think more professing Christians (whether considered "weak" or not) would oppose use of tobacco today, even in moderation, than would oppose moderate use of alcohol.

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Chris
Member at Grace Community Baptist Church, Mandeville, LA

Beware of a religion without holdfasts. But if I get a grip upon a doctrine they call me a bigot. Let them do so. Bigotry is a hateful thing, and yet that which is now abused as bigotry is a great virtue, and greatly needed in these frivolous times. I have been inclined lately to start a new denomination, and call it "the Church of the Bigoted." Spurgeon

I think there is no principial difference between alcohol and tobacco on Christian liberty issues (smoking is, I think, considered the greatest "sin" by many today) -- except that wine is a commanded element of the Lord's Supper. I think abstention of either for fear of what others think is not what Christian liberty is all about. As Martin Luther said, "Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying [or abstaining from] the object which is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we prohibit and abolish [or abstain from] women? The sun, moon, and stars have been worshipped. Shall we pluck them out of the sky." [edits mine]

Well,
To be honest with you, based upon past discussions w/ Fred and P Way, I am totally confused. I don't want to go through the whole thing again here, but they have 'bound' my conscience. I don't fault Fred or Phillip for that, as they have alluded, Pauls warning is clear............so based upon that, I will approach the liberty w/ caution.

Make sense?

I think women and the sun, moon, and stars is a weak argument. I have a daughter who drinks, he used to drink to much and poissibly may still do so on ocasion. I HATE it was every passion in me. I never have drank, never knew anyone (before coming here) who drank responsably. If I drank it would further encourage my daughter and any other kid I work with that it's "cool". If the man who preaches Christ to them more than anyone else in their life drank beer it would without a doubt be a stumbeling block. If they read threads like this it would be a stumbeling block.

While smoking (which I do not do either) can cause you il health, you cannot get drunk from it. Absuing tobacco only harms you, abusing alcohol can harm anyone around you.

Would then total abstinance also preclude the BUYING of alcohol, though you may only use it for cooking b/c someone might stumble seeing you walk in a liqour store?

What about use of alcohol medicinally - a tablespoon of whisky to ward off the flu?

Beth,
I will not go any further with my convicition; I am drawing some lines for myself.

As far as whiskey warding off the flu: A flu is generally viral. Alcohol does nothing to inhibit viral replication or proliferation; it may make you care less about it, but it is not an anti-viral.