Wow, I am more confused now than I was a few posts agouzzled:

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Adam Leavelle
Westminster OPC
Roaring Spring Pa.

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"Speak wisdom to a fool and he'll think you have no sense at all"

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Adam, surely you acknowledge that if it's principles and not pragmatics we're talking here, a Jewish nation is no closer to God's will today than is a Muslim nation, for they both equally deny the One Christ.

In Christ,

Chris

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Chris


A passion to know and reflect Christ by living and demonstrating the truth and richness of the historic Reformed faith

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Christopher Blum
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Sure, no problem there.

It just seems blatently obvious (no offense) that we should support Israel. They and their Islamic neighbors my deny Christ but Israel is the better friend and much closer to us politically.

I also happen to believe that literal Israel is to be blessed and not cursed according to scriptures. Didn't even a dumb donkey know that?

[quote:9ceae8c670][i:9ceae8c670]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:9ceae8c670]
Sure, no problem there.

It just seems blatently obvious (no offense) that we should support Israel. They and their Islamic neighbors my deny Christ but Israel is the better friend and much closer to us politically.

[/quote:9ceae8c670]

I have no problem with supporting any political friend. That doesn't man we should give away our children's future and fortune in foreign aid to such "friends".

[quote:9ceae8c670]
I also happen to believe that literal Israel is to be blessed and not cursed according to scriptures. Didn't even a dumb donkey know that? [/quote:9ceae8c670]

What do you mean by the term "literal Israel"? I suspect there is some baggage here that needs to be unpacked.

There is biblical Israel and there is modern Israel. The two are not the same. Biblical Israel no longer exists.

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Tom Albrecht
Member, Covenant URCNA, New Holland, PA.

"I'm not a famous man. I'm just a simple country doctor with horse sense."

My theology will never cause me to stop backing Israel.

[quote:c9aeb5ab84][i:c9aeb5ab84]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:c9aeb5ab84]
My theology will never cause me to stop backing Israel. [/quote:c9aeb5ab84]

But what is your "gut" reason for doing so? By going so far as to say, "I also happen to believe that literal Israel is to be blessed and not cursed according to scriptures," you [i:c9aeb5ab84]really[/i:c9aeb5ab84] make me suspicious of there still being some "Dispensational blood" in you (no offense). Tell me how you collectively interpret the following verses: Matt. 3:9, Luke 19:9-10, John 8:39-41, Acts 15:8-9, Rom. 2:28-29, Rom. 4:11-12, Rom. 4:17-18, Rom. 9:6-7, Rom. 15:8-9, 1 Cor. 1:22-24, Gal. 3:7-9, Gal. 3:13-14, Gal. 3:28-29, Eph. 2:11-22, Heb. 8:13 and 1 Pet. 3:6.

In Christ,

Chris

Whoa. As for me, I'm a Zionist to the bone and I reject this silly replacement theology. How do you regard Israel becoming once more a nation after 2000 years in light of Ezekiel chapters 36-38?

__________________
Aaron Cowart
member, Covenant PCA
Houston, TX

Student at Southeast Missouri State University (SEMO)
Cape Girardeau, MO

"The hypocrite's religion is divine in name, but human in deed."

-Richard Baxter

Aaron, would you feel comfortable calling yourself as "Dispensationalist"? Or would you deny that label?

Dispensationalist? Not in any sense of the word, if you mean to say that dispensationalism is where people where saved by different means throughout history.

Can't I be orthodox and still affirm that Israel has not been swept out of the picture, as the Bible has stated?

[quote:0f1da65fdc][i:0f1da65fdc]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:0f1da65fdc]
Dispensationalist? Not in any sense of the word, if you mean to say that dispensationalism is where people where saved by different means throughout history.[/quote:0f1da65fdc]

The word can actually have a broader meaning than that; just the tendency to view God's focus on different major groups of people to be of different natures and extents during changing time-periods, even if that focus is not necessarily salvific in nature, is considered "Dispensationalistic" to some extent.

[quote:0f1da65fdc][i:0f1da65fdc]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:0f1da65fdc]
Can't I be orthodox and still affirm that Israel has not been swept out of the picture, as the Bible has stated? [/quote:0f1da65fdc]

Orthodox? It depends upon what you mean by that term, and even that is an issue sometimes debated. However, while one [i:0f1da65fdc]can[/i:0f1da65fdc] interpret God's post-OT dealings with "Israel" that way and still possibly be "orthodox", one [i:0f1da65fdc]cannot[/i:0f1da65fdc] believe that and be [i:0f1da65fdc]Reformed[/i:0f1da65fdc] in the fullest confessional sense of the word.

When interpreting passages like Ezekiel 36-38, which "Israel" do you take those chapters to be referring to - physical or spiritual. As shown by the verses I referenced above, there is a clear biblical distinction.

In Christ,

Chris

[quote:c90413182b]
one cannot believe that and be Reformed in the fullest confessional sense of the word.
[/quote:c90413182b]

Please. I could probably pick a random doctrine in which to believe and find one reformer to back me up. Perhaps we should read [u:c90413182b]Of the Jews and their Lies[/u:c90413182b] by Martin Luther for a church service. I think that would be very edifying. Or maybe we should paint the church with pictures of Satan giving birth to the pope out of the "exit-only" hole. After all, Martin Luther did have those drawings commissioned, and we wouldn't want our reformed brethren to miss out on that blessing. No, wait! Lets run into my "Bible" church at Christmastime and destroy the nativity scene! You're in good company there.

I hereby proclaim: He that does not curse the devil while he farts is an Arminian.

[quote:06ef73073f][i:06ef73073f]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:06ef73073f]
[quote:06ef73073f]
one cannot believe that and be Reformed in the fullest confessional sense of the word.
[/quote:06ef73073f]

Please. I could probably pick a random doctrine in which to believe and find one reformer to back me up. Perhaps we should read [u:06ef73073f]Of the Jews and their Lies[/u:06ef73073f] by Martin Luther for a church service. I think that would be very edifying. Or maybe we should paint the church with pictures of Satan giving birth to the pope out of the "exit-only" hole. After all, Martin Luther did have those drawings commissioned, and we wouldn't want our reformed brethren to miss out on that blessing. No, wait! Lets run into my "Bible" church at Christmastime and destroy the nativity scene! You're in good company there.

I hereby proclaim: He that does not curse the devil while he farts is an Arminian. [/quote:06ef73073f]

There's no need to get into a combattive or insulting spirit. We are here to discuss issues [i:06ef73073f]to the glory of God[/i:06ef73073f], and if we cannot do so properly, we should refrain from discussing those issues.

That being clear, I said you cannot believe God still has a special place for physical Israel today in His covenantal plan and be Reformed [i:06ef73073f]in the fullest [b:06ef73073f]confessional[/b:06ef73073f] sense of the word[/i:06ef73073f]. I nowhere said that one should agree with everything that every Reformer said. Look at the WCF, and then ask yourself if it agrees with your view of modern-day Israel. If it does not, you should be honest with yourself and others as to Reformed theology's disagreement with you on that point. As Matt said in an article of his on APM, "You cannot reject aspects of Covenant Theology and call yourself Reformed" (taken from "What Does it Mean to be Reformed - Really?" at http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism...BeReformed.htm).

In Christ,

Chris

Adam and All(even Scott B),
Im so glad your finally seeing what im seeing with Bush. I know and ask your forgiveness for not doing it in a gnetle way. But im glad to see your actually looking at bush not through the lenses of the christian coalition-or God only votes republican viewpoint(if that makes sense). Only god can help Bush we can only pray he turns away form sins just like I pray that God will continually turn me away from my sins as well more than likely world leaders or men of power wont tunr away from their agenda but it has happened but it is not something I would expect. All we know is that somehow God has a plan and is working it through all of us. Some of us will make it others will turn away but God will be Glorified!! I agree with Bush that God made him president of our nation. I disagree with Bush in the sense that God is using him in a different way then being that new christian leader to take back our nation from being a religous melting pot and den of adulters. I personally dont think there is even going to be an election(I know Patrick is going to when he reads that ha ha) the only thing we can do is Love God honor our family and persevere to the end things are bad now and getting worse like not that I endorse him rumsfled said the war is just begining and it is it is.

blade

__________________
Nathan Olaf Brandal
First Baptist Church of Kirkland

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure"
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I have no problem with any part of the Westminster confession.


Combative and insulting? I guess I'm not *really* reformed because I don't believe or do believe some things about Israel? Ridiculous beyond any measure of human comprehension.

[quote:42cdc56c90][i:42cdc56c90]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:42cdc56c90]
Combative and insulting? I guess I'm not *really* reformed because I don't believe or do believe some things about Israel? Ridiculous beyond any measure of human comprehension. [/quote:42cdc56c90]

I'm talking about your speech like, "No, wait! Lets run into my "Bible" church at Christmastime and destroy the nativity scene! You're in good company there." That is being sarcastic in a non-edifying way, as you continue to do in your last post. We don't need to make a doctrinal dispute a personal issue, talk in a smart-alek way, or slander each other. I respectfully ask you to stop.

In Christ,

Chris

Telling me I'm not reformed is not a doctrinal issue.

I'm not attacking you, I'm making light of your arguments by extending them in a logical fashion.

Guys please settle down were here to discuss together not go at each others neck keep the conversation on topic settle disputes that are not related via u2u.

blade

[quote:e93edbb359][i:e93edbb359]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:e93edbb359]
Telling me I'm not reformed is not a doctrinal issue.[/quote:e93edbb359]

If you look at enough past threads on this Board, you will see that yes, it absolutely is. We've even had discussions and debates here as to whether or not Reformed Baptists (of which there are [i:e93edbb359]many[/i:e93edbb359] on this Board) should call themselves "Reformed" or not. We've also discussed things such whether or not all credobaptists have a "Dispensational" streak to them. When we were discussing "The Passion" and its relation to the second commandment, many of us attempted to show that if one believes such images of Christ are acceptable, they are not in-line with Reformed thought on that issue. We discuss whether or not certain view's of each other's are Reformed [i:e93edbb359]all the time[/i:e93edbb359] here on Puritan Board. If you were not prepared to receive any answer, you should not have asked, "Can't I be orthodox and still affirm that Israel has not been swept out of the picture?" I was simply giving you my mind's answer to your question, which I still believe.

[quote:e93edbb359][i:e93edbb359]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:e93edbb359]
I'm not attacking you, I'm making light of your arguments by extending them in a logical fashion. [/quote:e93edbb359]

Challenging you on a view of yours being in-line with Reformed thought is purely a doctrinal issue, and is perfectly reasonable. It does not logically lead to the kind of speech you were making.

By the way, Blade, thanks for getting this thread back to its original topic. Since we wanted to discuss Israel's place in the world today, we should have created another thread. My apologies.

In Christ,

Chris

its easier to start a new thread so we dont cram in to many conversations in one topic.

blade

So, Blade, since you don't agree with so much of what Bush stands for, how exactyl do you plan to vote in November? Do you think the Constitution Party is a valid "replacement vote" instead of Bush? Do you plan to vote at all in light of the candidates?

In Christ,

Chris

chris,
I may vote for the constitution party if their is an election. then again I may not vote for them. I have not made up my mind yet. I do know that bush is a wasted vote - should I vote for him just because he is there? because he breaths? no He is not a leader for america or christians and Lord willing God will raise one up.

blade

[Edited on 6-3-2004 by Bladestunner316]

[quote:f55e92ca70][i:f55e92ca70]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:f55e92ca70]
My theology will never cause me to stop backing Israel. [/quote:f55e92ca70]

What good is your theology if it does not inform your actions? uzzled:

[quote:e331b34dc0][i:e331b34dc0]Originally posted by Bladestunner316[/i:e331b34dc0]
chris,
I may vote for the constitution party if their is an election. then again I may not vote for them. I have not made up my mind yet. I do know that bush is a wasted vote - should I vote for him just because he is there? because he breaths? no He is not a leader for america or christians and Lord willing God will raise one up.

blade

[Edited on 6-3-2004 by Bladestunner316] [/quote:e331b34dc0]

I basically agree with Fred's point that if it's Christian commitment and morals that one's looking for, [i:e331b34dc0]every[/i:e331b34dc0] vote inevitably compromises - and that the Constitution Party probably has just as many things that we should consider non-Christian than does Bush, since no commandment is more important than any other, and they surely don't acknowledge the exclusive truth of Reformed theology.

And you can vote on one of two things: principles or pragmatics. If it's the former, the Const. Party will be a compromised vote just like Bush will. If it's the latter, voting for the Const. Party will obviously do nothing (pragmatically).

I realize you didn't say you had definitely decided to vote for them yet, but I'm just re-emphasizing points that had already been made in this thread which also happen to summarize what I think about the Const. Party as well. Just my :wr50: (but not really mine!).

In Christ,

Chris

I understand Its disapointing that there really is no one to vote for that can do anything. So why vote? Its like saying should I read my bible to just read my bible so that it looks like im spiritual? If there is no one to vote for there is NO ONE to vote for plain and simple. I dont see anything wrong with abstaining form voting if there is no current canidate that would justify voting for them.

blade