I would like to get your impressions. If a woman open-air preaches the gospel to a group of people that include men, is she violating I Timothy 2, in regards to women not having authority over men?

__________________
http://sedwardwilson.wordpress.com

Any reason you skipped the word teach from the passage?

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Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

Ed, is she in violation? Yes. Why? Preaching is a function of duly ordained and trained men. Preaching includes teaching the word of God. The two cannot be separated.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

What does "open-air" have to do with it? The answer is still the same.

__________________
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I have wondered this too. What's the difference between a woman who has a larger audience and the woman at the well who went and told all the people in her village? Or a woman who shares the gospel with male co-workers? I won't believe that a woman whould teach men or have authority over men, but I am not sure when it comes to this issue. I think that it is usually not needful since there are men who fill this role. But what about a woman who steps up and shares the gospel in a place where men are not willing to do so? Surely the cause of the gospel would be more important than upholding the normal standard of gender roles in this instance.

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Jared Hanley
AG
LaFollette, TN

Unless the LORD builds the house,
those who build it labor in vain.
Psalm 127:1 ESV

First, sharing the gospel (one on one) is no sin by anyone. But that's not what we're talking about here. The question was asked concerning "open air preaching" - which I assume means taking on a mantle of authority to preach the Word. Gospel-sharing isn't quite what I had in mind when I read the OP.

So, if a woman is frustrated that Christ isn't being shared, she's certainly free to share the Gospel - but can she take it upon herself to stand in the place of a preacher in the open air? Assuming you believe that a woman taking on such a role is contrary to Scripture, then I ask - is it EVER ok to disobey God, for whatever "good" end you have in mind? Surely this isn't that hard to answer.

How about open-air exhorting....or open-air proclaiming of the Gospel.

__________________
Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

So it's a sin for a woman to tell an unsaved man to repent and believe the gospel?

Edit: And what about Christian women missionaries?

__________________
Nikki Edmond
Desert Springs Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Tucson, AZ
Principle and Practice Blog
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Ideally=men
special cases=women that's what i think anyways

__________________
~ Charles Stephen Barribeau ~
Christ Presbyterian Church , OPC (They sing alot of Psalms!)
Original Westminster Standards (I need to study more...)
The Puritans were best! Also... I NEED TO READ MORE!!!
Philipians1:29(KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Janesville, Wisconsin (In the fellowship of Bob Vigneault and Matt+Megan Meisberger)

It is amazing to me, how on this site, very few people can respond with an answer...everyone seems to like to respond to a question with a didactic question.

I do not believe that a woman sharing the gospel one-on-one is wrong, but I am not sure what I think about a woman standing and preaching to a crowd. If I had an opinion, I wouldn't have bothered to ask your thoughts.

My question is this: is a woman open-airing to a crowd, in a position of authority, as Paul spoke to Timothy about in I Tim 2?

By the way, I completely reject the argument that the woman at the well telling the people in her town, "Come meet a man who told me all that I've done" - is the same as preaching/teaching the gospel...to me, it is absurd to even bring that circumstance into the discussion...she did not preach repentence and faith, or teach the word of God, she simply told people what happened in her conversation with him.

And in regard to me leaving out the word teach...no, there was no reason, no, sly, underhanded reason for leaving the word "teach" out - but thanks for answering my question.

Steve

I needed to know that before I asked the second question before I tried to answer you. Sometimes if a question is too general it can't be answered responsibly, right? If I ask you "Will my well run out of water?" and you know nothing of my situation what will answer me?

The second question is, given your hypothetical question, is the woman in your example teaching? I promise I'll give a direct answer to your original question if you answer me this one last diagnostic question.

Please, let us remember that the subject of the original post was "preaching".

From Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English:

Westminster Larger Catechism question 158:

I think if you take these two things together, the answer is clear. The location or context is irrelevant.

__________________
Tim Lindsay
member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, Halifax, NS, Canada
Living in Cape Town, South Africa
"under the Southern Cross, at the foot of Table Mountain, not far from the Cape of Good Hope"

Nikki, the OP asked about preaching, not sharing. One-on-One's are typically thought of as sharing. I think that's a completely different situation.

Ed, I think you received a very clear response:

Can she preach? No. Why? Preaching includes teaching (the two cannot be separated).

Nobody who's responded on this thread has said so.

That's a different question. What does a Christian women missionary do? If she's leading worship services and training local men in the upbuilding of a local congregation, (i.e. function as what many might call an 'evangelist') then categorically yes, I would say she's in violation of Scriptural precept. If she's merely pointing people to the gospel and then guiding them to seek teaching from an appropriate church entity (i.e. a male missionary, existing congregation, etc.) then I don't think there's a problem, as long as she herself doesn't function as the people's teacher of the Word.

In all of this, recall that there is a difference between sharing the gospel, which all are called to do, and teaching/preaching the Word of God.

Let's start a post and define these words:

Sharing, telling, testifying, witnessing, praying, preaching, teaching, announcing, proclaiming, etc

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

How about women linguists? They translate but this involves telling people what the Word ofGod says.

If by this sideways method you're implying that we should throw up our hands and declare that there's no distinction to be made, and that Christian women missionaries delivering the Word of God as a teacher/preacher/pastor to an 'unreached people group' is legitimate, then I guess there's no convincing you.

I'm sure you've seen "effective work" by Christian women missionaries working near you, Perg. That effectiveness doesn't change the fact that many or most of them might be working in actuality as though a pastor, contrary to the revealed word of God. Are they serving as the authoritative contact, the teacher, for these people, to teach them the Word of God and preach it to them? I think it wise to think carefully about what is being done, and whether it in fact runs afoul of the Word.

I may be wrong in my assessment of what you're saying, though, and if so I apologize. Why not offer the first set of definitions, then?

What's with the accusations of "side-ways" methods. "Throw up out hands" ??? Why the rhetoric?

Women excel in languages and literacy courses, which are huge in world missions.

Most try to guard against being "pastors" and local leaders - though ignorant - usually lead the "church" and the linguist stays in the background.

I also agree that women should not "preach" in whatever context.

But I would like a list of evangelistic activities and their definitions, or else the line between preaching, evangelism, witnessing, sharing and iving a testimony can become gray.

I realize that some here on the PB think that 1 Tim 2 is a declaration about how all of life should be ordered, but I think it is clearly contextually limited to how things in the church should be run.

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Ben
Chaplain, US Army
Ft. Riley, KS
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA

My understanding is something like this as well. An exercise of ecclesiastical authority or control. So, if a woman "preaches" to her children at home or "shares" the Gospel with someone (man or woman) privately or even shares a testimony, even in a church setting, it is not a biblical violation.

Of course, having a rebellious attitude toward God, her husband or men in general is sinful, but that is another matter.

I don't think these occassions contradict the principle that men ordinarily are created by God to lead and serve, women to follow and help, either. There are exceptional situations also.

Knowing what I now know of the Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture God's will, a woman intentionally preaching to a crowd of men, ordinarily would be sinful, even in an "open air" setting. There might be some extraordinary situation where that might not be the case, but that is not your question here.

__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

Except that 1 Tim 2 proves the church order by pointing to the created order. It basically says that since women are under the authority of men in creation they are also to be under that authority in the Church.

1 Tim 2 uses creation for the explanation of why the church order is as it is. There is no reason to assume, without further bible references, that the verse should be applied to other spheres of life.

(Just to clarify, I do believe "preaching" in an authoritative role is outside of a woman's role and that applies both in doors and outdoors)

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Mark
Independent baptist
Singapore

Except that, as you say, it uses creation for the explanation. It is for this reason, because the order is found in creation, that it can be applied to the broader spectrum of all spheres of life.

Larry,

Because Adam was over Eve in creation does not imply every man is over every woman in all spheres of life. We are reliant on the revelation of the bible to tell us how we should apply the truth of creation.

As I see it, Paul first gives the prohibition on women's authority in v12. He then goes on in v13 "For Adam was first formed...". The reason women should not be in authority over men in the church is, by Paul's revelation, because of what happened in creation.

Paul never says that creation demands that women are not to be in authority in other spheres, so there is no reason for us to imply that into this verse.

In any case, we know the verse is not of all-encompassing application because the bible gives us examples of women teaching or in authority in other spheres, be it mothers over their male children, wives over their servants, female heads of households, or women teaching men in informal situations like Priscilla teaching Apollos or Abigail teaching David.

He is not using Adam and Eve as simply the first created people, but brings the creation account up to show the created order of the genders. It is because God created a particular order between the genders at creation that we are to keep such orders in our churches.

It does not give us examples of women having this kind of authority over men.
Mothers over children certainly has nothing to do with them being over men.

As far as the other examples that you give it's not easy to give an answer to without the passages that you are referring to.

I presume the Apollos passage you refer to is...
And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. (Act 18:26)

And if it is, i see no reason why you think it points to Priscilla having any kind of authority over Apollos. The word "expounded" can also be rendered "declared"...and there is nothing wrong with a woman declaring the Gospel to others.

I believe that women are not to teach Christian men the Word of God...period. I don't care where it is. Can a woman teach non-believing men? Yes...that's sharing the Gospel. Can a woman teach a man how to cook or learn a different language? Yes. Can a woman share and debate with men? Yes. But none of those things contain authority over men in the church or home.

__________________
sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

Larry, I completely agree with your statement, particularly the part you bolded. I agree thats exactly what Paul is saying in 1 Tim 2. What is disagree with is that Paul intended, in this verse, to dictate what should happen in other spheres of life. Paul has a particular purpose in bringing up creation, which is to support his point on authority in the church, not make a blanket statement on all of life.

I am open to the arguments about other spheres, but I believe it is a wrong method of bible interpretation to apply 1 Tim 2 to other spheres without other verses to support the point.

Let me just address this part first. 1 Tim 2 addresses both teaching and authority. So if 1 Tim 2 has a blanket application in life, both teaching and authority are wrong in any and all senses. So my point in using that verse was not to say that Priscilla (or Aquila) had any authority over Apollos, but rather that Priscilla (together with her husband) was teaching Apollos, which I believe is the correct context of the passage, as their were correcting his deficient understanding of the truth to let me know the truth more perfectly.


I should have clarified I meant adult children. And again, these can refer either to authority, or teaching. The verses I had in mind are Gen 27:8, Prov 1:8, 6:20, 31:1-2.

Here are the verses I had in mind:
Wives over servants: 1 Sam 25:18-19, 2 Kings 4:24, Esther 4:17 ( that last one is a little different, but still an example of authority)
Female heads of households: Lydia (Acts 16:15, 40) and the Elect Lady (2 John1:10).
Informal (i.e. not in a official preaching capacity) teaching of men: 1 Sam 25:32-35, Acts 18:24-28.

Just looking at these first two I disagree that this shows they have some kind of authority in the context. It would be like saying that because my wife says, "pick up some bread at the supermarket" that she has authority over me.

I apologize if my bluntness caused offence. I admitted I might be wrong in my assessment of your aim in posting what I thought was a very odd way of entering the discussion. You asked for a definition of a large number of words which evidently lie along some continuum in some people's thinking. I read that question as you approaching the issue from a different angle, meaning to promote the 'continuum' idea, and say ultimately that we are going to come up with different thresholds for violation depending on how we interpret those words. I saw that (again, if that wasn't your intent, I apologize for ever asking) as a "sideways" approach, and that approach as a statement that one shoud "throw up his hands" in trying to come up with some dividing line.

oh,

I do believe that there are dividing lines...some of mine are just a little fuzzier than others...


One point, however, is this: we stress so strongly what women cannot do; I often wonder if we are communicating well enough what they can do and are we empowering them to do these things?

Example: I know a lady who was selected to teach a sunday school class full of very very young boys and she resigned and her and others felt convicted about her exercising authority over males. I think her and others were pushed too an overly conservative position due to a steady date of hearing the limitations of females.

Open Air to me means simply sharing the gospel, giving the message that all are damned to Hell under the law of God, followed by what God did to provide a way of salvation from such a condition. Any who respond to such a "proclamation" should then be encouraged to attend the church of the proclaimer or to meet with the proclaimer and his or her Pastor.

I agree with this. Calling men unto repentance is not the same as leading and teaching men within the Church.

__________________
Adam - Pennsylvania - Baptist

http://www.myspace.com/aleavelle

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/p...5655012&ref=nf

Doug Wilson has some interesting things to say about this idea and, although it is in an article about Sarah Palin, I think the main point he is making is relevant here. See:

The Creation Order and Sarah (esp. the third paragraph).

__________________
Chris
Independent Baptist
Michigan
Layman

I think what Pergy is getting at is, at what point does sharing turn into preaching, or where do you draw the line?

__________________
Christian
One Pilgrims Progress

I think you draw the line at gospel "proclamation". If one is "drawn" by the Spirit because of such, this person will surely have deeper questions at which time the proclaimer (male or female) could direct them to literature from their Church which would include a phone number for the Pastor (which could be highlighted).

Unlike Arminians we don't have the desperate need to get the person to instantly say the "sinners prayer" in case we lose them. If the Holy Spirit uses a woman's proclamation of the Gospel to pierce the heart of a man she does then not have to "teach" him. If he refuses to attend service or call a pastor it's likely his ears and eyes were not truly opened to the good news she shared. Just how the disciples RAN to the tomb when they heard the woman's good news!

Lately, I have come to the conclusion that any Open Air Ministry should ideally be under the authority of the church which would make clear that no woman should participate in the actual preaching aspect of said ministry.

I do kind of see where the confusion, or gray if you will, comes from when broaching this subject. I have personally on many occasions hit the streets specifically for the purpose of witnessing and handing out tracts. Some the brothers I go out with are open air preachers. Anyway, when we go out, we usually engage in many one-to-one encounters. But, sometimes the one-to-one encounters turn into one-two or one-to-ten. And when that happens, I find myself having to raise my voice so that everybody can hear. So, when does sharing the Gospel become preaching? Is it the decibal level of one's voice that makes it preaching? I think there is a line somewhere in this regard; I’m just not exactly sure where that line is. Is it intent? If a woman goes out with the intent to share in one-to-ones and ends up surrounded by listeners, should she cease and desist? I’m not sure.

Also, it seems that there is somewhat of a distinction between expositing Scripture for the Saints during Lord’s Day worship and a preacher raising his voice calling for repentance and faith among a crowd of unbelievers complete with scoffers and hecklers. Now just because there seems to be a difference doesn’t mean that a woman should take part in the latter.

__________________
Dan
Member, Soaring Oaks Presbyterian (PCA)
www.soaringoaks.org
Northern California
The duty of a theologian is, not to please the ear with empty sounds, but to confirm the conscience by teaching things which are true, certain and profitable.
John Calvin, 1559

I believe you're right, I believe there is a vast difference and call unto repentance is not "teaching", at least not in the way women are instructed not to do. In the very least, if you conscience bothers you about it couldn't a woman go out to do this with a man and they each deal with their perspective sexes?

As of late I too have come to a very similar conclusion in regards to Open Air Ministry - It should be in the context of the church. Now how to make this the normative practice is beyond me.

I have been an active street/campus preacher for several years now and I have preached with women in the beginning, however today I do not see it to be biblical for a woman to preach in the open air, but before we get to my conclusion let's make some distinctions that we can all agree with.

One on One Witnessing:

One on One is permissiable for all Bible Believing Christians to do. We are commanded to "Go and Preach". A woman sharing the Gospel in this context is not in question, although if we are to be consistent, sharing the Gospel will always include some type of teaching.

If someone can offer an example of sharing the Gospel without some element of teaching I would welcome it and stand humbly corrected.

One on One witnessing will not always be to just one person. Anyone who is active in public evangelism will know this. When we appraoch a family, a group out on the town, or even one person there is usually more than one hearer of the conversation. When this happens we may raise our voices but this is not Open Air Preaching.

Please allow me to clarify by way of example:

I know of a woman who commutes on the bus for two hours each day and she is very active in witnessing each way and makes a consious effort to sit next to someone new each way. In doing so she often finds herself sharing with the person next to her but also to those in the adjacent seats at the same time if they are attentive to the conversation. She raises her voice so those listening within earshot can hear the Gospel as well. Would this be preaching - I would unapologetically say no.

Now let's take this one step further... During her evangelism she is made aware that the person is a church going Arminian. Is she to abruptly end the conversation? Is she not to instruct (teach) the Arminian in Sovereign Grace? Should she hand them a tract and a Pastor's phone number? What if the person reads the tract and has questions? Should she not answer, instruct, and exhort?

Now one may argue that Priscilla is an example, but this woman I am speaking of rides the bus alone and is unmarried. Should she not "expound"?

Again, I unapologetically say no... She is not preaching or exercising authority but sharing the Gospel with those around her. However we cannot get around the fact that the sharing of the Gospel requires teaching at one level or another.

Open Air Preaching:

In the context of an Open Air meeting there are some general things that take place more often than not:

1) The preacher uses elevation of some sort. It may be a stool, a low wall, steps, or a park bench.

2) The preacher preaches with authority and boldness confronting sin in the market palce.

3) The preacher (like the one to one evangelist) teaches and instructs in right doctrine and in the law of God. Although this is done in an authoritive manner rather than just by casual conversation.

4) The preacher often has believers in the audiance and is also exercising authority over them. Often believers will stop listen and even give out an AMEN! Just like in the church setting.

Open Air preachers teach of the fall, the reality of Hell, the requirements of the Law, and the justice of a Holy, Righteous and Just God. Many ask questions and listen intently to the proclimation of the Gospel as the preacher tears down any stronghold that exhaults itself against the throne of God.

Open Air preachers are heralds of the Gospel message and spend much time reasoning and teaching unregenerate and regenerate alike. They call sinners to repentance and faith in Christ with authority. There is no waivering in this call, but rather a call with all determination and earnestness and just like it was said of Christ - They speak as one having authority.

Many times throughout the preaching you will be confronted by well meaning Christians who will tell you what you are doing is wrong. In this situation we are to gently admonish and rebuke for opposing the preaching of the Gospel. We examine and warn those who are in error. Again they exercise authority over one who belongs to the local church.

It is because of these reasons that I say a woman biblically has no business preaching in the open air.

That's my

P.S. Reformed Cop: There... I posted! Happy now!

__________________
Name: Paul A. Kaiser
Church: Free Grace Baptist Church
The Reformed Evangelist Blog: www.ReformedEvangelist.com
YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ReformedEvangelist
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Location: Plumas Lake, California (Yuba/Sutter Co.)

"The Truth Sounds Like Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth!" - Unknown

Mr Kaiser,

You are a deep thinker and careful to apprehend God's truth, revealed through His Word.

This puts you in good stead here, and I look forward to reading your contributions.