Thread: Are teens ready for deeper Reformed truths?

The post below by Reverend Lane Keister on his Greenbaggins blog got me thinking about how we are delivering the Reformed faith to teen-agers.

Specifically, our assumptions about whether they can only be reached through a superficial pop culture approach or through a rigorous systematic teaching and application of the deeper truths of Reformed Christianity.

I would be interested in hearing from some "teen-agers" here as well. What do they think about the assumptions being made about their doctrinal maturity in relation to a "contemporary" versus "traditional" approach to participating in the life of the church?

Alex and Brett Harris have just come out with a book entitled Do Hard Things. There are few books more counter-cultural or necessary for teens to read. As a pastor I often weary of trying to minister to teens who will not be impressed by anything because they expect the church to spoon-feed/entertain them rather than teach them Bible content and (horror of horrors!) doctrine. Even the church’s expectations of teens is that they are not able to handle doctrine because that’s too deep for them.

Having worked with teens for nearly 20 years, I can assure you it's the adult leaders that have gotten teens into this situation. If the adults begin to change, the children will follow.

I often weary of trying to minister to teens who will not be impressed by anything because they expect the church to spoon-feed/entertain them rather than teach them Bible content and (horror of horrors!) doctrine.

Most adult believers I know fit this description as well.

My kids understand God's Sovereign choice in salvation. I know that my oldest understands Covenant Theology and how Christ fulfilled the Covenant of Works on our behalf. We have discussed it before. It really isn't that hard to understand.

I think we should expect our teens to learn all that they can before we send them out into the world. Brad and I taught our children the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed when they were three or four years old, so they could participate in worship. There is great value in teaching them or equipping them for the battles they will face in the real world.

We were attending a church that was dispensational and that was what they were studying in youth group, my daughter saw through it right away. I believe she was 12 at the time, and she was very upset. She knew it was wrong, but didn't understand why it was wrong. We looked up all of the scriptures given by the leader and she was able to see how it didn't line up with scripture. We left the church shortly after and returned to the PCA church we had been attending to find the youth group leader teaching a class to the teens about why dispensationalism was wrong. It was great! He also expected each one of them to obtain copies of Tabletalk and read it. He has since left, but he was awesome. He held a really high standard and didn't let the kids play dumb and they all respected him for it.

I think we always underestimate what our children can handle and we are wrong to do so. I work with all four of my children on the catechism and they seem to get it.

The Holy Spirit works in the hearts of all believers and I don't think there is anything we can't handle if the Lord is at work in our hearts and minds despite our age or education.

I just graduated do I still count as a teen?

Anyway, I was very involved with campus ministry, and was comissioned by the Assemblies of God to win converts on campus. We did the whole 'be cool reach the youth thing', but after two years I found that there were no genuine converts. I was left in charge of the program so I pulled the plug and decided to teach doctrine to any kids interested (this happened my senior year, I had discovered reformed theology my junior year).

Consequently everyone lost interest and quit . During this time my church transfered from a weekly youth fun nite to a mentor program. That too failed after a year.

Contemporary evangelism and discipleship doesn't work. It draws a big crowd, but bears little fruit. Don't entertain or spoon feed kids. Get e'm in a class room and beat the truth into their heads. Then beat their parents for raising little heathens.

He held a really high standard and didn't let the kids play dumb and they all respected him for it.

Awesome! If only all adult's in charge of youth would "get that".

Then beat their parents for raising little heathens.

The Good Work Begun: A Puritan Pastor Speaks to Teenagers by Thomas Vincent

Since the WCF was written for children I think teens can handle it.

Originally Posted by TheocraticMonarchist

I just graduated do I still count as a teen?

Anyway, I was very involved with campus ministry, and was comissioned by the Assemblies of God to win converts on campus. We did the whole 'be cool reach the youth thing', but after two years I found that there were no genuine converts. I was left in charge of the program so I pulled the plug and decided to teach doctrine to any kids interested (this happened my senior year, I had discovered reformed theology my junior year).

Consequently everyone lost interest and quit . During this time my church transfered from a weekly youth fun nite to a mentor program. That too failed after a year.

Contemporary evangelism and discipleship doesn't work. It draws a big crowd, but bears little fruit. Don't entertain or spoon feed kids. Get e'm in a class room and beat the truth into their heads. Then beat their parents for raising little heathens.

&

We were a little nervous when Ruben was to continue the young people's meetings in Mexico as we really don't feel gifted to do 'youth work' considering the kind of people who normally do. Ruben taught them apologetics and they had some very good questions/discussions. A couple of them started buying reformed books (Spurgeon and others, not 'teen' books), with their very hard earned money and reading them. I have noticed that my own interest is often sparked in new areas of theology by trying to understand how to refute some error; the more I learn about the truth, the more I want to learn about it for its sake not merely in context of error. Teenagers especially do have need to be equipped against errors they are hearing as they emerge from a more sheltered mental environment as children. I certainly don't think it's the only or necessarily the best way to engage teens, but teaching them to understand and use the doctrines of the Christian faith in response to errors they will encounter does seem like a way to help them take an interest in doctrine.

I would think that it depends upon each individual teen and their particular level of maturity. Each person is different and so their ability to grasp will be just as different.

teens=no

5-6 years old=lets keep it basic

I think it does a dis-service to young people when you assume, for instance, that they won't come to church unless there's some sort of halfway decent band "leading the worship".

Originally Posted by py3ak

I think it does a dis-service to young people when you assume, for instance, that they won't come to church unless there's some sort of halfway decent band "leading the worship".

A good band can draw lots of shallow unspiritual folks.

The education level of the average individual has fallen ridiculously far in the last few centuries. Please, don't dumb down a single thing. I am eighteen and I am mad that I have not delved deeply into theology until so soon. I would have loved for my dad, a chaplain, to have taught me these things. (I became officially Reformed in May this year, from my own theological studies and research beginning in April.)

Originally Posted by packabacka

The education level of the average individual has fallen ridiculously far in the last few centuries. Please, don't dumb down a single thing. I am eighteen and I am mad that I have not delved deeply into theology until so soon. I would have loved for my dad, a chaplain, to have taught me these things. (I became officially Reformed in May this year, from my own theological studies and research beginning in April.)

x 10

I am right there with you brother. ( + 10 years though )

Originally Posted by PuritanCovenanter

I know that my oldest understands Covenant Theology and how Christ fulfilled the Covenant of Works on our behalf. We have discussed it before. It really isn't that hard to understand.

I wish I could say that this was a true statement regarding a number of ministers and elders in our Reformed churches!!!

Originally Posted by Archlute

Originally Posted by PuritanCovenanter

I know that my oldest understands Covenant Theology and how Christ fulfilled the Covenant of Works on our behalf. We have discussed it before. It really isn't that hard to understand.

I wish I could say that this was a true statement regarding a number of ministers and elders in our Reformed churches!!!

I think the reason why people consider Reformed theology "deep" is that they think the only way you can present Biblical Truth is at the level of using heavy theological terminology and providing the depth and width and breadth all at once.

If you look at the link on the sidebar: The PuritanBoard - Why Reformed Theology? - one of the reasons for this site is that I believe that understanding God's Word and passing on an understanding of God's Word is important for both kids and adults to understand. It's not simply teens that are increasingly ignorant about who God is and what His Word teaches but adults as well. The default religion of today is Gnosticism. Teens and adults have "loving feelings" for "a God" but it's not a God they describe with any clarity as to what Christ has done on a Cross. Ask a man or woman for their testimony and they'll start sounding like the Mormon and his burning in the bosom. Rare is the man who talks about Christ's death on a Cross.

What can be more profound than the fact that Christ died once for sin and then sat down at the right hand of the Father and ever intercedes for His own? That can be explained to a child but tie up the theologian for a lifetime. Of course that notion is completely unknown to nearly every Christian I encounter today.

The Southern Baptist Church is increasingly alarmed at a trend that shows that 80% of their children, by the time they reach adulthood, are leaving the faith. Once the "Jesus is my rock star" image encounters real intellectual pursuit, men and women don't have time any more for a religion that's made up of kid's games. Revivalism gave us a religion that was good for women and children that love all the "Jesus is my lover" songs while this new Gnosticism is only keeping the people that are comfortable turning off their minds and entering into altered states every Sunday. God is the loving lover who loves and we just love the loving lover who loves because he loves us so much. No sin. No cross. No death. Just an ambiguous love.

I've taught people of all ages from kindergarten to adult. The base material is always the same - Confessions and Catechisms are organized brilliantly - I just adapt it to the crowd. The first thing I do, though, is I usually ditch the canned curriculum. Honestly, GCP is usually pretty weak and don't even get me started on the SBC's Lifeway materials that have adult materials that are fit for elementary age education.

Teaching the children the catechism is a great way to help them enter the same deep waters as the adults are swimming but at an appropriate level of knowledge that they might grow in the wisdom of the fear of the Lord.

Who made you?
"God", answers my two year old.

What is sin?
"Sin is any want of conformity or transgression of the Law of God," answers my four year old.

How many adults can answer that much?

Scott1;4

Specifically, our assumptions about whether they can only be reached through a superficial pop culture approach or through a rigorous systematic teaching and application of the deeper truths of Reformed Christianity.

I think we are doing kids a disservice with the superficial pop culture approach.

I would be interested in hearing from some "teen-agers" here as well. What do they think about the assumptions being made about their doctrinal maturity in relation to a "contemporary" versus "traditional" approach to participating in the life of the church?

I'll have to discuss this with my kids tomorrow..

Alex and Brett Harris have just come out with a book entitled Do Hard Things. There are few books more counter-cultural or necessary for teens to read. As a pastor I often weary of trying to minister to teens who will not be impressed by anything because they expect the church to spoon-feed/entertain them rather than teach them Bible content and (horror of horrors!) doctrine. Even the church’s expectations of teens is that they are not able to handle doctrine because that’s too deep for them.

The question should be WHY is it to deep for them?? Why do they not expect them to be able to handle God's truth??

Here is Alex and Brett's site. I like it.

A story:

I taught my old church's high-school youth group for a few months last summer. Since I hadn't really been paying attention to the 'usual' way of running it, I just assumed that they wanted what I had wanted at that age--someone to stop rubbing my age in my face by acting like I couldn't take the substance of theological teachings but needed stories and 'energy' and activities more--so we did a straightforward, fairly in-depth study of Romans, using Calvin and Lloyd-Jones as our reading material. I got severely reprimanded by the youth pastor after the first meeting of this--but when the youth group had literally doubled the next week, and we had parents coming to pick up their kids and instead waiting outside the room where we were meeting to stare with their mouths hanging open while their kids asked question after question about serious theological things as if they couldn't get enough of it--after that, he gave me free reign, and that youth group had the best sequence of weeks it's ever had.

Ever since that experience I, too, have been wondering why in the world we change the way we present Christian truths to teens... Maybe our dumbing-down, making 'cool', loosening up, activity- or 'worship'-oriented 'teaching' is the very reason for the apathy we are trying to combat with those tactics. I think it is.

At 16-21 many youth are looking for REAL answers and they sense boloney when they see it. They are all about being authentic and keeping it real...well, good theology is keeping it real, instead of giving easy answers to life's questions. At 18 I was drifting towards agnosticism and the Lord used deep theology to save me and show me that the church didn't have to be the local Glee Club.

Originally Posted by Pergamum

At 16-21 many youth are looking for REAL answers and they sense boloney when they see it. They are all about being authentic and keeping it real...well, good theology is keeping it real, instead of giving easy answers to life's questions. At 18 I was drifting towards agnosticism and the Lord used deep theology to save me and show me that the church didn't have to be the local Glee Club.

ABSOLUTELY!!

The challenge for the church is that we have adopted an unbiblical paradimn modeled after the culture of the world. Nowhere in the Word of God do we have anything regarding the "teenager" or "adolescent." We have ported this thinking directly from the humanistic philosophy of our culture so that even in the church, "teens" have their own church, pastor, language, music, dress, etc.

This syncretism with the world is reflected in the church's adoption of things like "youth pastors" and "children's church." A couple of points come to mind where I believe we have missed the mark:

1. We have replaced dad in the home. Or it could be framed a different way - Dad has surrendered his obligation to the youth pastor and church programs, and the church is all too eager to let him do it.

2. As stated above, we have missed the biblical model that young children grow into young adults, not awkward, rebellous teenagers.

3. Segregation is the spirit of the day. Instead of viewing the church as "one body," it has turned to marketing demographics to swell its numbers. If we can have a class or program to meet every "category" - we'll be more attractive. This has turned into age-segregated / peer-influenced "youth ministry" which is typically led by a 20-something with very little training.

All of this is NOT to say that there we should not minister to young people or that it is wrong to have specific classes for our youth. But we should be very careful that we do not undermine Dad in the home; that we do segregate and fragment family so that the church is not "one body" worshiping together.

Lastly, to address your the question directly - our children learn "theology" at the feet of Dad as we open the Word of God daily and read to them, explaining the scriptures. They learn what it "means" as we teach them the catechisms (at their own pace) and pose questions to them regarding thier understanding of scripture.

For pastors - you can help in this if you will publish your next week's sermon text or provide a church-wide Bible reading program so that all of your families can be on the same page. You may also want to consider publishing the next week's Psalms and Hymns so families can learn them in family worship. This will help children to be more "engaged" in the worship service.

We have seen first-hand the benefits of a family-integrated ministry that trains dads how to lead their homes.

Keep training those kids! They get more than you might think.

Brian

I agree completely, however what about broken families?

Originally Posted by PuritanBouncer

Brian

I agree completely, however what about broken families?

Rich, what are you pointing out here? That children don't need fathers to prosper spiritually?

I think he is pointing out that knowing the Scriptures deeply is the solution even for broken families, like Timothy's.

Originally Posted by Pergamum

At 16-21 many youth are looking for REAL answers and they sense boloney when they see it. They are all about being authentic and keeping it real...well, good theology is keeping it real, instead of giving easy answers to life's questions. At 18 I was drifting towards agnosticism and the Lord used deep theology to save me and show me that the church didn't have to be the local Glee Club.

Originally Posted by Pergamum

I think he is pointing out that knowing the Scriptures deeply is the solution even for broken families, like Timothy's.

Ah, but there are teens from terrible families that go to church. I guess I am sort of taking up for youth pastors. I am NOT for fun,games, and Pizza at church to bribe kids into coming to hear a bible story. I do however feel there is a need for youth ministries for those that are serious. Problem is, that may be few and far between.

I agree that focusing on youth is a good thing too PuritanBouncer.The issue I guess is how we focus on them and what manner of relations we take...trying to be a cool peer or speaking the truth in love to them even if we recognize that we are of another generation? I think that if we talk to them like adults they will usual act more like adults.

from my experience, it's a mix.

You have to be "cool" without being lenient and accepting of wrong doing, etc. It's tough to do that, but I know it can be done, and people can be trained to do it as well but they have to WANT to do it.

I had many street kids sit and listen to doctrine and theology once they knew I loved them and wasn't a "stuffy" adult seeking that they bend to my will "just because". I feel we need youth pastors because people who pursue those positions "get" that as many adults simply don't.

You have to be "cool" without being lenient and accepting of wrong doing, etc. It's tough to do that, but I know it can be done, and people can be trained to do it as well but they have to WANT to do it.

I know God can use being "cool" but is that really required?

I had many street kids sit and listen to doctrine and theology once they knew I loved them and wasn't a "stuffy" adult seeking that they bend to my will "just because". I feel we need youth pastors because people who pursue those positions "get" that as many adults simply don't.

What I hear you saying here is we ought to meet some basic needs first for this very needy group (as per James 2:14-16) as an entree to a credible effort to disciple. Is this correct?

Originally Posted by Reformed Christian

We have seen first-hand the benefits of a family-integrated ministry that trains dads how to lead their homes.

B. B. Warfield: It is worth while to be a Shorter Catechism boy. They grow to be men. And better than that, they are exceedingly apt to grow to be men of God. So apt, that we cannot afford to have them miss the chance of it. “Train up a child in the way he should go, and even when he is old he will not depart from it.”

Originally Posted by armourbearer

B. B. Warfield: It is worth while to be a Shorter Catechism boy. They grow to be men. And better than that, they are exceedingly apt to grow to be men of God. So apt, that we cannot afford to have them miss the chance of it. “Train up a child in the way he should go, and even when he is old he will not depart from it.”

One thing that I have lamented in teaching many teenagers in the PCA and OPC was how ignorant they were of the Shorter Catechism. Every year the SoCal Presbytery of the OPC has a junior and high school retreat. The children were by and large well behaved and believed Christ but many were ignorant of the Catechism. There was a Catechism Jeopardy one evening and only about 4 kids out of the 200 present were able to accurately complete the answers to catechism questions.

I then taught Junior High boys a few years later at a PCA and was shocked that only one boy in the entire class had even a passing understanding of the Catechism. Worse, the man helping me to teach didn't feel equipped to teach the WSC to the boys. I had received permission to ditch the canned curriculum and simply teach the WSC to the young men and it was too difficult for the father helping me whose son was one of the boys in the class.

That kind of stuff really breaks my heart. I alerted the Session to this problem and encouraged them that there needed to be more effort to catechize the adults of the congregation. I'm a firm believer that if catechism isn't learned at home then it isn't learned. It's sad to say but my Biblical familiarity from being raised a devout Roman Catholic (with weekly mass and CCD) was better than many of my Evangelical counterparts when I first became an Evangelical.

FWIW, I know an 18 year old girl who has Romans, Ephesians, James, the Sermon on the Mount, and the first 60 or so questions of the Shorter Catechism memorized. So, the Lord is doing some amazing things with some teenagers.

Also, as having just graduated college, I noticed that many professing young people are looking for something "deeper" than the hokeyness of many churches. I noticed that they were heading in generally one of two directions. Direction one: the emergent church. Direction two: Reformed theology.