but I find it hard to mourn and to pray for the earthquake ravished China. With the tyranny that this country perpetrates on Christians, and families (1 child per family rule and forced abortions), I find it hard to sympathize with them. Godless communists getting their comeuppance?

Burma is where I can legitimately mourn and offer prayers.

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~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

Anton

America's Sin's are no worse than China's would you desire other Christians around the globe to have the same attitude towards you and your family if the disaster fell upon your community?

And let's not just look at the country, let's also look at it as praying for the individuals, are their sin's worse before God than your own? Or my own? No, all sin, no matter who commits them, has a payment that God has determined to be worthy of death. It is God who is the judge..not us, and for us to say "these people God created are worthy of our prayers, yet these whom God also created are not." Is very prideful don't you think?

As we do not know who, no matter where they live that God has determined who are his and who are not..we need to pray for all..There are some Christian's who DO live in China..

And are you not aware there are people here on this forum who live in China? Are you not going to pray for our brothers and sisters and their friends and families?? Or are they not worthy of your prayers merely because of where they live at in this world?

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

Although only one leper returned to thank Jesus, Jesus did not reverse the healing of the other nine. Jesus had compassion on the ungodly and we too should have compassion on the bereaved and those who have lost everthing. The Chinese government may be communist but it is no more corrupt than western governments. Are godless communists any different to godless democrats or republicans? The Chinese authorities may persecute the church but the church is flourishing in China despite the difficulties. Of the victims in China one would anticipate a fair number of Christians among them. In fact had there been the same loss of life in an American tragedy probably fewer Christians would be amongst the dead. Lk 13.1-5 helps to keep things in perspecttive

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Stuart
Elder, Lambeg Baptist, Northern Ireland, UK

In Him the fulness of the Godhead dwells in bodily form and in Him you are complete (Col 2.9-10)

The sacrifice of a broken heart doth please Him but the sacrifice of a broken Christ alone doth satisfy Him (Richard Steele)

Actually have you ever thought about what the Burmese authorities are doing to the church?

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Stuart
Elder, Lambeg Baptist, Northern Ireland, UK

In Him the fulness of the Godhead dwells in bodily form and in Him you are complete (Col 2.9-10)

The sacrifice of a broken heart doth please Him but the sacrifice of a broken Christ alone doth satisfy Him (Richard Steele)

Keon,

I do want to offer something else, I find it very commendable that you have opened your heart up to us on this matter, so that we can also be praying for you.

I know it takes a lot of humility to come before others and confess things we struggle with, especially when it comes to why we find it difficult to go before God on behalf of others..

It is encouraging to watch God open our own heart's and eyes to areas we need God to change us, and shows us more clearly the depth of sinfulness within our own hearts and the attitudes we carry..

So thank you for sharing..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

Brother, I understand.

We see it all the time, in so many more ways than this. There is no more 'me' society than this one, b/c it is truly Darwinian in oh so many ways (re: one child policy, other social legislation, general gov't propoganda). Looking out for #1 is a means of survival here.

But I think we have to look to the folks buried under the tower at Siloam here.

God forbid that America get its come-uppance.

China never had the free gospel to reject; Christians have always been swimming upstream here. The US had the gospel preached freely for so long and has, for the most part, rejected it completely. There's a true shame for you.

Just be praying for these people.

But like I said, I understand.

__________________
Kevin
Far East
Deacon, Int'l Church

Brother you need a lesson in election and grace to understand that you would be no different without them. Thank God he does not give us all what we deserve.

__________________
Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ

kvanlaan;


I believe in many way's America is just beginning to reap her come-uppance, and it will get worse unless we turn to God and repent from our own wicked ways..

And I believe it will be worse here than in China, because we have known the truth and have had the blessing of being able to preach it fully and yet, as you stated so truthfully, so many reject it or they twist it to what they want it to be and not what it is..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

I believe God still blesses American and other western countries, because we are still being used to send out the gospel. But that being said, America and the western world is on dangerous ground. Just this week another state (California) lifted the ban on homosexual marriage. Abortion is rampant here. God help us.

I can see how it'd be hard to mourn for those who perpetrate such tyrannical things against their own people. Do you find it easier to mourn and pray for the recipients, those who suffered under such tyranny (Christian and non-Christian)? They've suffered so much...now this.

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Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

There But For the Grace of God Go I

__________________
Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

Jon 4:9 And God said to Jonah, Is your anger rightly kindled over the plant? And he said, My anger is rightly kindled, even to death.
Jon 4:10 And Jehovah said, You have had pity on the plant, for which you had not labored, nor made it grow, which was a son of a night, and perished the son of a night.
Jon 4:11 And should I not spare Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than a hundred and twenty thousand men who do not know between their right and their left hand, besides much cattle?


If God cared and showed compassion on heath Nineveh doesn't it seem that He would also care for China as well? The people there are to be given mercy and shown pity. This may have happened to show the Chinese government the loving kindness of our sovereign God through us, His children.

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Tom Mitchell
Opp, AL
Member of First Presbyterian Church PCA Florala, AL

Open profaneness is the broad dirty way which leads to hell
--but trusting in religious duties is a sure way, though a cleaner way to hell. ~ Thomas Brooks
www.myspace.com/tom_mitchell1960
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=607055102

I ain't judging man but that's a heart issue. I know you ain't entirely comfortable in confessing that judgmental spirit on a lost and spiritually clueless folk. They are doing what unsaved folk do (just as we did and now still often act like even though we are regenerate! Crimey!) So put away that heart and mourn for the doubly-dead.

Your brother,

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Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

I've read recently that there are around 7% christians in China and that there is a bible publisher that has a plant opening there that will produce about 25% of the annual bible production, mostly for consumption by the chinese. So, though they may have an oppressive government, God is choosing his elect from where ever he wills.

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Kenneth Murphy
M.A.R. Student [Theology & Biblical Languages] - Whitefield Theological Seminary
Covenant of Grace Church - Member
St. Charles, MO

Love your enemies as yourself.

This is one of the most difficult things to do for me, so I understand where you're coming from. It is no less of a command however, to you and especially me.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

The Burmese were mostly peasants. My grind with China is that they forcibly perform abortions on families that are about to violate their 1 child per couple rule. Sickening. I can write a long long list of abuses by this state.

__________________
~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

thanks. This is what I have to work on.

__________________
~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

__________________
1689 Baptist Confession

Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley, Wilderness Road Baptist Assembly.
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann.
www.wildernessroadbaptist.org

Anton Bruckner;

Does it matter that some are peasants and some are not?

And do you honestly believe the majority of people in China WANT to kill their unborn children? It's not like here in America where people WILLINGLY go and kill their unborn children..Our sin's as a Nation are just as great in that respect.

So hate the laws in China, I have no problem with that, but to not pray for the people because their government enforces sinful laws upon them..is just as sinful as the government enforcing the laws..It should be those things that bring us to our knees in prayer not only for the people in China, but all the more for their leaders and those enforcing the laws..

Why do you assume that just because a person is a peasant they deserve your prayers more than those who are not peasants??

What does Scripture teach us where it says it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven??

Does not Scripture also teach us we are not to favor (or think more highly of) one person over another because of their "riches and status" in this world??

however, it is not just favoring the rich man over the peasants, but the peasants over the rich man as well..

And it is the rich in China as well as the poor who are forced to kill their unborn children..do they really not deserve your prayers??

Should Christians in other countries not pray for us in America because people here WILLINGLY go and kill their unborn babies and the government approves of it??

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

Good point, Bobbi. And, Keon, I appreciate your sharing your concerns and difficulties. I don't fault you at all for your hostility to the Chinese Communist policies.

I would echo What Bobbi said, and add to it this thought -- the indigenous underground church in China is growing perhaps faster than any place on earth now, in large part due to the persecution by the Communists.

So I would have to say that, although we may not know what the plan is over there, God is in charge of the real Plan. And Romans 8:28 works, whether we know the details or not.

__________________

HaigLaw, ruling elder
Grace PCA, Shreveport, LA
http://www.xanga.com/HaigLaw

Maybe we should read the book of Jonah and the book of Habbakuk as well.

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

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